Suggested by TheSorrow
(This exact same request came in from hotshot a few days later as well)
While there is the epic Star Wars Vs Halo battle in which Star Wars won, here we are pitting the most intelligent race in the Halo universe against the Empire.
Not quite sure how this is going to turn out, but it makes for a great debate.
What say you?
UPDATE: (2.4.2011) Not that it should really matter, but for this battle both sides are at the height of their power.
Karen Traviss is writing for Halo now? It really doesn’t help Halo’s case to be taken serious as a big Sci-Fi property when they are just picking up Star Wars scraps.
This is a stomp against the Empire. The Fortress-Class ships that the Forerunners had were essentially Sun-crushers, just way bigger (the only thing close in size to those ships that the Empire has is the Death Star) as they were 50 kilometers and newer models were 100 kilometers in length.
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Their power, to be put in perspective was in the exatons range for their point-blank defense guns, with their main guns being in the yotaton range possibly (as Forerunners contemplated making entire star systems go supernova to stop the Flood but realizing it was useless as it would not stop them).
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The Forerunner Empire also had way more soldiers and ships to their disposal as they had over twice the number of planets than the Empire did at it’s peak, with three million worlds under their control. Their armor was also a major advantage since it took away their need to sleep and made their lives indefinite (the Librarian was 11,000 years old for example), they also had Cryptums which was pretty much a state of hibernation that could last thousands of years. They also had AI in each suit and they could transfer tons of info with just a touch of their fingers and I must add that in the classification rate of armor, MJOLNIR Mark V and VI were classified as Class 2 out of 18, which shows just how advanced their armors were.
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Needless to say, Forerunners win.
“This is a stomp against the Empire. The Fortress-Class ships that the Forerunners had were essentially Sun-crushers, just way bigger (the only thing close in size to those ships that the Empire has is the Death Star) as they were 50 kilometers and newer models were 100 kilometers in length.”
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This doesn’t take into account SW EU.
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“Their power, to be put in perspective was in the exatons range for their point-blank defense guns, with their main guns being in the yotaton range possibly (as Forerunners contemplated making entire star systems go supernova to stop the Flood but realizing it was useless as it would not stop them).”
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Quotes or calcs on firepower?
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“The Forerunner Empire also had way more soldiers and ships to their disposal as they had over twice the number of planets than the Empire did at it’s peak, with three million worlds under their control.”
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Empire has 1.5 million worlds and 69 million colonies.
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Only reason that the Forerunners win (which you didn’t even mention) is because of the scale and speed of their production.
The exaton range power is from the assault to one of the original Halos (which were three times the size of the ones in the games). A pair of Fortress Class vessels use their defense guns to fire at the Halo, and while the ring’s sentinels try to defend it, they are unable to and the attacks hit the installation, leaving gorges in the ring’s crust (it takes 7 Exatons give or take to melt the dry crust of earth for that matter), let’s put it this way: The Pillar of Autumn’s explosion in Alpha Halo was 100,000,000 degrees and didn’t do much damage to the crust itself, but the stress of the explosion was enough to destroy the ring. Now that was on the newer Halos, this Halo in particular was one of the ones made at the Greater Ark (see above for size) and just a couple Fortress Class vessels were able to destroy it with their point-defense guns all the while the ring’s sentinels were absorbing as much damage as possible for the installation.
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The Forerunner Empire also can outnumber the Galactic Empire’s ground forces (and space fores for that matter) quite quickly, a sentinel factory in Onyx was said to produce a sentinel every six seconds, that would be ten sentinels a minute, 3,600 an hour, 86,400 a day, 604,800 a week and 2,419,200 a month, and that is just counting one facility in one planet. This sentinels (Onyx’s) were also able to combine into a greater construct, augmenting their own firepower (a thousand of them combined and one-shot a Covenant Destroyer). In fact, Onyx itself was made out of trillions of sentinels.
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In the matter of SW EU, I took it in consideration, that’s why I mentioned the Sun Crusher (which is pretty much the best ship/weapon the Galactic Empire could get and even then, Fortress Class vessels do the same as stated above).
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Forerunners also had a mastery of astro-engineering, harnessing stars and creating planets in less than 10,000 years. They could also put stars where they shouldn’t be any, like, a small sun in the middle of slipspace, they could also make structures and shields out of hardlight. I could post more but it would make the fight less fair for the Empire.
Before I do unnecessary calcs myself, could you tell me where you got the 7 exatons from?
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“The Forerunner Empire also can outnumber the Galactic Empire’s ground forces (and space fores for that matter) quite quickly, a sentinel factory in Onyx was said to produce a sentinel every six seconds, that would be ten sentinels a minute, 3,600 an hour, 86,400 a day, 604,800 a week and 2,419,200 a month, and that is just counting one facility in one planet. This sentinels (Onyx’s) were also able to combine into a greater construct, augmenting their own firepower (a thousand of them combined and one-shot a Covenant Destroyer). In fact, Onyx itself was made out of trillions of sentinels.”
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This is what won them the match. The Empire can’t match this production rate.
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“In the matter of SW EU, I took it in consideration, that’s why I mentioned the Sun Crusher (which is pretty much the best ship/weapon the Galactic Empire could get and even then, Fortress Class vessels do the same as stated above).”
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*facepalm* Sorry, when you said sun-crushers I didn’t even catch the reference. I thought you were saying that they were just on starbusting level.
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“Forerunners also had a mastery of astro-engineering, harnessing stars and creating planets in less than 10,000 years. They could also put stars where they shouldn’t be any, like, a small sun in the middle of slipspace, they could also make structures and shields out of hardlight. I could post more but it would make the fight less fair for the Empire.”
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Yeah, Forerunners beat the Empire, but Star wars does have celestials (not part of the Empire) which are similar to star wars in the way that forerunners are to Halo. They’re Xeno-architects, and that’s the reason SW won the SW vs Halo match.
“could you tell me where you got the 7 exatons from?”
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His ass. There is absolutely no evidence of anywhere approaching yottaton level firepower for Forerunner ships, and it takes a fleet of Forerunners to blow up a star according to the Halo Encyclopedia.
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The instance he is quoting involved several ships targeting points on a Halo causing it to shatter. Even partially damaging a Halo would cause it to rip itself apart from the gyration of the ring.
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I would be highly dubious of his ‘calcs.’
Well, the info about the whole Exaton thing I got it from here: www.projectrho.com/rocket/spacegunconvent.php
It has helped me in many debates so I usually take that calculation.
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Anyways, there’s also the fact that they’ve got trillion of ships, or so Cryptum says, unless I am mistaken:
“The sensor images were impressive and strange. I had never seen a quarantined stellar system before. Such capabilities were rarely displayed to young Builders. A planetary system is mostly empty, even the greatest of worlds being lost in the immensity of billions of kilometers of space. Like their former human allies, the San’Shyuum had evolved on a water-rich world not far from a yellow star, within a temperate zone that allowed only a narrow range of weather. Now, however, ten thousand years after their defeat, the system was surrounded by trillions of vigilants that constantly wove in and out of space-time, sometimes so rapidly that they seemed to shape a solid sphere. This sphere extended to a distance of four hundred million kilometers from the star, and thus did not encompass four impressive gas giants whose orbits lay beyond that limit.”
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This and the whole Battle of the Maginot Sphere where Offensive Bias and his 11,000 ships fought Mendicant Bias and his 4.8 Million, Flood-infested ships which is probably the biggest curbstomp in the history of curbstomps (Offensive Bias won, lol)
“Only reason that the Forerunners win (which you didn’t even mention) is because of the scale and speed of their production.”
I thought it was because the Halo side went over everyone’s heads and contacted admin for an award while the debate was still raging.
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“A pair of Fortress Class vessels use their defense guns to fire at the Halo, and while the ring’s sentinels try to defend it, they are unable to and the attacks hit the installation, leaving gorges in the ring’s crust (it takes 7 Exatons give or take to melt the dry crust of earth for that matter),”
Which they don’t do. It’s explicitly said that the Halo breaks up due to stress caused by a constant bombardent in a single area, not by pure destrictuve force. Here’s the relevant quotes:
“The installation began a spectacular disintegrative sequence. The visible half of the ring bent in opposite directions, then shattered into five great arcs. We passed near the largest of these segments, perhaps a hundred kilometers from the inner surface.”
-Cryptum, page 320
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“Kilometer-wide swaths of forest waved like flags in a slow wind, shivered off a dust of trees – and broke apart into chunks. In the increasing violence, the surface released a storm of boulders, followed by immense cross sections of sedimentary layers, and finally, entire mountains, still capped with snow.”
-Cryptum, page 321
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Note particularly all the mentioning of ‘breaking up’, and particularly the bit about the ring bending outwards and shattering. There is no vaporization of pieces of the ring, just a lot of stress being applied in one area that causes the entire ring to break apart under its own weight. This is like taking out the support pillar of a building with a machine gun, and then claiming your machine gun has the firepower to obliterate buildings when it colapses under its own weight.
So no, unless the Halo supporters can provide some more actual feats instead of just wank, they do not have multi-exaton weaponry on even their largest vessels. This is also supported by the fact that their orbital bombardments leave the bombarded planet’s atmosphere breathable, and that life still exists on them.
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“The Pillar of Autumn’s explosion in Alpha Halo was 100,000,000 degrees and didn’t do much damage to the crust itself, but the stress of the explosion was enough to destroy the ring.”
That’s exactly how the Forerunners blow it up too.
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“and just a couple Fortress Class vessels were able to destroy it with their point-defense guns”
It never says anything about point defense weapons. The quote says:
“Even before it had emerged halfway, the fortress began to loose clouds of fighters – at this distance, they resembled a puff of pollen from a flower – and fire its weapons in a sequential radiance.”
-Cryptum, page 320
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So no mention of just point defense weapons. And all of its fighters were helping too, however much they did.
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“while the ring’s sentinels were absorbing as much damage as possible for the installation.”
I see no mention of any sentinels around the station at all.
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I’m beginning to think we’re talking about different events. As my quotes show, I’m referring to the event at the end of Cryptum. If something happened in Primordium, I haven’t read it yet.
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“a sentinel factory in Onyx was said to produce a sentinel every six seconds, that would be ten sentinels a minute, 3,600 an hour, 86,400 a day, 604,800 a week and 2,419,200 a month, and that is just counting one facility in one planet. ”
To be fair, Onyx is implied to be fairly unique, and not exactly a run-of-the-mill factory. You’re also assuming infinite resources.
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“This sentinels (Onyx’s) were also able to combine into a greater construct, augmenting their own firepower”
Ignoring for a moment the implicit no-limits fallacy and suspicious lack of diminishing returns present in this argument, the highest firepower output we’ve seen from Onyx Sentinels was still far, far below Star Wars standard, if going by the EU and ICS.
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“Forerunners also had a mastery of astro-engineering, harnessing stars and creating planets in less than 10,000 years.”
Because this fight will totally last 10,000 years, regardless of which way it goes.
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“could also make structures and shields out of hardlight.”
… So?
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Now, can we please just let this abomination of a thread die?
Actually, I just re-read it and four cruisers were the ones that attacked one of the Halos, the Fortress-class ships were just deploying fighters (whom were able to destroy another of the Halos on their own.)
“I see no mention of any sentinels around the station at all.”
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Nitpick, but there are mentions of sentinels absorbing shots in other quotes.
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I don’t have the willingness to search for these quotes now though, so carry on.
“From the fortress’s long tail, replete with gun mounts and weapons bays, thousands of swift attack vessels began to pour forth, fanning out, radiating to positions above the inner surface of the Halo. Our sensors now picked up swarms of small and midsize craft emerging from the Halo itself, and identified them as dedicated sentinels—used only for Halo defense.”
-Cryptum page 265
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“The first fortress’s fighters moved in, surrounding one of the primed Halos and engaging its sentinels. Simultaneously, four cruisers sent white-hot beams to points around the targeted installation. Sentinels intercepted some of those beams, partially deflecting them but also absorbing and sacrificing. Other beams struck home, carving canyonlike gouges across the mottled inner surface and blowing blue-white plumes of debris and plasma from the edges.”
-Cryptum page 266
“Three of the seven fleeing Halos were lined up, also seeking entry. They, too, were being harried by cruisers and were now attacked by swarms from the second fortress. Sentinels from these installations mounted a vigorous defense, pushing back their attackers. The rings maintained their integrity.”
-Cryptum page 267
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“The Halo was almost halfway through the portal. Our small craft flew up from its skim of the atmosphere, into a welter of debris, sentinels, and pursuing fighters jockeying for dominance and the proper tactical positions to break up the installation before it finished its transit. But they were insufficient to accomplish this task. This Halo was about to make its escape”
-Cryptum page 270
There are your quotes :]
So we have three paragraphs describing defending sentinels being vaporized, and one talking about Cruisers using their (presumably) main weapons to carve holes in the surface of a Halo ring. None of those are particularly impressive by sci-fi standards (Hell, Starcraft can completely melt the surface of a planet into molten slag with a few shots; that’s beyond what we’re seeing the Forerunners do here). Blasting gouges in something does not necessarily mean it’s disintegrating significant portions of the surface; hydrogen bombs leave huge holes in the ground, and the biggest ever detonated (which flattened part of a mountain range, I might add) was 50 megatons. That’s not even a blip on the exaton radar, and an ICS Star Destroyer would laugh it off, then fire several thousand times the firepower back in a single shot (let alone a single volley).
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And it turns out we were talking about different occurances. Go figure.
Just a reminder, Zazax, that we’re fairly certain that the ICS is complete bullshit. Someone trying to run with that and Stardestroyer.net numbers in the Geminus vs Star Destroyer match got their argument totally wrecked.
Not to Necro this thread, but now we have an idea what Forerunner weapons can do, they apparently vaporize enemies now.
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Halo 4 E3 Gameplay
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N-CRrP9xjQ
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/Discuss
well due to the fact that the empire is very large and has vast super wepons and many units to put in the front lines and I don’t why the empire can’t just make like two death stars well then well end of forerunners yes they are vry smart the forerunners but the empire is way—– bigger then them, and unsc beat them once I don’t see why the empire can’t. p.s that is not a picture of the empire
“and unsc beat them once”
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…….
“unsc beat them once ”
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You have just lost all credibility.
oh is it that I said it wrong, oh im sorry im gonna kill myself now.
“oh is it that I said it wrong, oh im sorry im gonna kill myself now.”
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Kind of an overreaction, but get your facts straight before throwing your opinions in.
“I thought it was because the Halo side went over everyone’s heads and contacted admin for an award while the debate was still raging.”
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Yeah… we contacted him to update the battle so both sides were at the height of their powers, hence the update… There were a bunch of reasons the Forerunners could win, but we wanted to put the battle on hold until more information was released.
sorry but why keep arguing?
What can do the empire against the precursors?
Now, fans of star wars say that a star destroyer has the power around exaton and it can melt the surface of a planet …
From what I know there are over 25000 star destroyers around the galaxy and millions of other vessels including sun crusher, death star, super star destroyer and everything else.
but then please explain me one thing: why not send a star destroyer on the rebels’s base to destroy everything (in the movie)? why after the destruction of the Death Star with 3 fighter is the fleet retired?
However these are only my doubts …
the empire has dozens millions of worlds under his control and the Kuat Drive Yards, a giant ring around the planet where they build a star destroyer in 6 months (if I’m right).
now, the forerunner are a peaceful people and not belligerent, but when they encountered the humans empire made war, the forerunner have managed to produce an unprecedented fleet that defeat human fleet battle after battle. the main ship ever built are the fortress starship ( 50 km ) for the transport of hundreds of thousands of troops.
with the flood threat, the Forerunner began to build the machines and monitors, and here we are:
1 – I never heard that the empire of Star Wars has the ability to build worlds, only to destroy but is more easier.
2 – Star Wars has the Death Star that can destroy a planet, but the rings burn life to 25000 light years en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_(megastructure)
3 – Star Wars has the sun crusher which contains 11 missiles that cause a nuclear reaction that destroys a star. but I know that The Forerunner Dreadnough has enough power to destroy a star. Only one thing: there is one sun crusher in star wars, but the Forerunner Dreadnough are 20000+ … Notice the difference? other details: the Forerunner Dreadnough are carrying ships, not battleships. (i don’t remember where is written that the key ships are 20000, but i’m quite sure, if i find it, i will post as soon as possible).
4- halofanforlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/1304267641_halo_ship_scale_chart_large_by_d4rkst0rm99-d39ffjw-SM.jpg
be careful to size: there are not super weapons, but vessels of precursors used in the wars in the first line.
5- Coruscant? awesome, even in the film. The Capital? the largest arc is 100,000 km lenght, and there are more arcs. This planet is also entirely artificial. www.halopedian.com/Capital
6- Kuat Drive Yards? great but i think is better the ark: 127000km
www.google.it/imgres?um=1&hl=it&tbm=isch&tbnid=mFzzn4_KSe6s5M:&imgrefurl=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/File:ArkScaleComparison.gif&docid=W7qfc5MtegYs4M&imgurl=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100718175623/halo/images/8/8e/ArkScaleComparison.gif&w=860&h=720&ei=zDwBUNzNN4TO4QTsi6G6CA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=879&vpy=349&dur=790&hovh=205&hovw=245&tx=126&ty=170&sig=114868670133887478003&page=1&tbnh=146&tbnw=174&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:116&biw=1366&bih=667
Even with most of the Forerunners power unknown, it still seem like a rolf stomp, the Forerunner have developed enough techonology to keep even the flood at bay. Created uncountable weapons hundreds times more powerful than the death star. Don’t know what the galatic empire have againest the forerunners.
7- Another factor to consider is the duration of wars: the empire lasted 20 years building a huge army with millions of warships, but it is also true that towards the end of its collapse one general said (in the movie) that they didn’t enough materials to finish the second death star and that they had problem to find it.
Forerunner have fought a war against humans and later the flood (this lasted 300 years of open conflict). the difference is that the Forerunner don’t have the conception of money, they have a quite different policy, which allows him to build whatever it takes regardless of the efforts: it is already evidence that possess a higher mentality.
The Empire will never have the ability to build worlds or structures in higher dimensions, mainly because it does not have the technology but also because its economic policy does not allow it to do that. Here all the souces: halo.wikia.com/wiki/Forerunner-Flood_war
8- In the same site it’s written that before the activation of the Halos some forerunner were able to escape out of the Milky Way galaxy: so, i never heard ( except the Yuuzhan Vong) that the empire have the propulsion system enought powerfull to go out of the galaxy. And again: the two ark are out of the galaxy and so the forerunner have the tecnology to transport planet, in fact, in the centre of the first ark there are a forerunner planet used only for the construcion of the halos: www.google.it/imgres?q=halo+ark&um=1&hl=it&sa=N&biw=1680&bih=949&tbm=isch&tbnid=CkCzn5mxqQKIbM:&imgrefurl=http://gtxx1015.deviantart.com/art/halo-ARK-72298075&docid=pQJqk250LtCONM&imgurl=http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs24/i/2007/350/f/4/halo__ARK_by_gtxx1015.png&w=1024&h=576&ei=TeUBUMGHK6Gm4gTNnqmUCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=783&vpy=526&dur=2443&hovh=168&hovw=300&tx=177&ty=79&sig=113202701412191975975&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=187&start=0&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:0,i:149
9- about the informatic system: in star wars i never seen IA more advance of the onboard computer of the star destroyer or D2 and C3PO. Here the Forerunner don’t have any problem: they have only in the Capital trillions of sentients IA and monitor with one IA class Metarch: it means that he controls all the system of the Capital (more that 100’000 km) and the entire forerunner fleet. so another details: each forerunner has a personal IA that depending on the power can do an informatic battle against a ship, a fleet, an entirely city or planet. Here you can get all the information: www.halopedian.com/Artificial_intelligence ( and also the personal AI of Bonstellar in Halo: Cryptum)
Some quotes from Halo: Cryptum about the Forerunners: (citation: ThePerson5 in bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=150269 )
Quote:
Pages 11 and 51
Twenty kilometers away, the central peak of Djamonkin
Crater rose through the blue-grey haze, its tip outlined in
ruddy gold by the last of the setting sun.
Page 51
The mining ship was an ugly thing, sullen, entirely
practical. Its belly was studded with unconcealed grap-
plers, lifters, cutters, churners. If the master of this craft so
desired, its engines could easily convert all of Djamonkin
Crater into a steaming tornado of whirling rock and ore, sift-
ing, lifting and storing whatever components it wished to
carry back.
Technological capabilities:
Quote:
Page 100
From those inner secrets, the Forerunners have
prodded sufficient power to change the shape of worlds,
move stars, and even to contemplate shifting the axes of
entire galaxies. We have explored other realities, other
spaces – slipspace, denial of locale, shunspace, trick geo-
detics, natal void, the photon-only realm the Glow.
Quote:
Page 143-144
The sensor images were impressive and strange. I had
never seen a quarantined steller system before. Such capa-
bilities were rarely displayed to young Builders. A planetary
system is mostly empty, even the greatest of worlds being lost
- page 144 -
in the immensity of billions of kilometers of space. Like their
former human allies, the San’Shyuum had evolved on a
water-rich world not far from a yellow star, within a temper-
ate zone that allowed only a narrow range of weather. Now,
however, ten thousand years after their defeat, the system
was surround by trillions of vigilants that constantly wove
in and out of space-time, sometimes so rapidly that they
seemed to shape a soild sphere. This sphere extended to a
distance of four hundred million kilometers from the star,
and thus did not encompass four impressive gas giants whose
orbit lay beyond that limit.
Quote:
Page 145
“They retired the Deep Reverence here,” he murmured.
A magnified image appeared and was enhanced by specifi-
cations and other data. The Deep Reverence was an impres-
sive fortress-class vessel, fifty kilometers in length, its incept
data before the human-San’Shyuum war.
Firepower:
Quote:
Page 197
The atmosphere below was a swirling soup of smoke and
fire. Warrior craft and automated weapon systems were
mostly to small to be visible, but I saw their effects – darting
beams of needle light, glowing arcs cutting across conti-
nents, gigantic, stamplike divots punched into the crust and
then lifted up, spun about, overturned. I had never seen
anything like this – but the Didact had.
FTL Speed:
Quote:
Page 99
The display tracked our course. We were moving out-
ward along the great spiral arm that held both the Orion
complex and Erde-Tyrene – just a few tens of thousands of
light-years.
Hours at most would pass for us.
Quote:
Page 134
HOURS LATER, WE emerged. The effects passed more
slowly than usual, indicating we had gone a very
great distance indeed, perhaps beyond the range of
normal particle reconciliation. There might be dilation ef-
fects when we returned.
I stood alone in the command center, looking out across
the tremendous, dim whirlpool of a galaxy, and called up a
chart to see where we were. Spirals and grids spread quickly.
At least this was our home galaxy. The ship was in a long,
obscure orbit, high above the galactic plane, tens of thou-
sands of light years from any feasible destination.
Quote:
Halo: Cryptum page 314
The first fortress’s fighters moved in, surrounding one of the primed Halos and engaging its sentinels. Simultaneously, four cruisers sent white-hot beams to points around the targeted installation. Sentinels intercepted some of those beams, partially deflecting them but also absorbing and sacrificing. Other beams struck home, carving canyonlike gouges across the mottled inner surface and blowing blue-white plumes of debris and plasma from the edges. The interior spokes began to shimmer and fade. The Halo could not hold together against this onslaught. It bent inward, wobbled. Fascinated, I watched as huge sections of the ring twisted like ribbon, giving way to destructive nodes of resonance, then rippled in sinus waves—and separated with agonizing majesty.
Sorry if my english is incorrect… I’m nor english!
Could someone from the star wars side tell me the average joules of a blaster in star wars?
I’m going to have to find the shield strength of John as well. Hm…
IIRC, the man with the answers and someone else calculated it to be in the mega-joule range two digits I think. Might be MC vs Alcatraz unless the arguement was debunked unknown to me.
Oh thanks!
What does IIRC mean? I see it used a lot…
So 30mj by halo 4 I’d say…
How much is the firepower in star wars?
A bit of derailing but… I really want to imagine it and all… John in the star wars galaxy!
neither win if chuck Norris is there.
derp
Housecracker,
Hilarious. A very detailed response. Bravo. You even went as far as to add additional info which could have played a huge impact on the existing battle.
your welcome dougiest treat! glad to be of service.
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but seroisoly (srry cant spell to save my life) forunners win. the empire alone couldnt stop them. the rakata empire though could have most definatly have beaten the fuck out of the forrunners. and chuck norris is overkill. >:D
“neither win if chuck Norris is there”
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Nope, Bruce Lee owns him
*Nope, Bruce Lee owns him*
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damn chinese! they rigged that! it was blasphemy!
May I point out that a couple of Warrior-Servants would wreck a legion of Stormtroopers? seeing how the Empire downgraded their rifles from having a 10km max range to 300 meters range.
No shields either.
I play Star Wars galaxies and I like to hang out in the cantina imagining how it would to have MJOLNIR Gen 2 armour and generally Promethean weapons. We’ll know a bit more when halo 4 comes out and the Thursday war maybe but, that’d be a lot of desintegrated stormtroopers. And a Promethean knight has the technical specs to battle a Force user with a light saber. It’s a matter of plot force then I’d say.
A knight can throw a ton easily a few meters back. It is shielded as well.
a ton =/= 960-ish pounds.
960-ish pounds = 400-450-ish kilograms.
kinda surprised the forerunners won this with what the GE can bring to the table. must have been peak forerunners and no EU galactic empire. not trying to start up a discussion, just thoughts at hand being said.
@Mike
Even with EU Empire, the Forerunners win as they can simply out-class anything the Empire has.
Hell, the entirety of Onyx sentinels (trillions of them) could probably beat the Empire’s navy.
see that’s the thing…….i have no idea what those things are. i was just going by the general yields that are thrown around in the haloverse. compared to anything else(humans/covenant), starwars shields and weapons are orders of magnitude higher. I’ve just never seen anything on the forerunners really. if they really are powerful enough to take out the GE, then the halo history writers must have slapped them with the penis plot device of stupidity to be taken over by the flood.
it doesn’t help how powerful you are if your government gets killed in one attack by your best AI…
even the U.S. has multiple contingencies in that event. the forerunners were a galactic spanning race with thousands/millions of inhabited planes right? so either they didn’t have a good contingency plan, or they had all their eggs in one basket. penis plot device of stupidity to the face. not their fault, game’s story creator’s fault.
again, doesn’t matter that your best AI appears out of the blue and takes control of five rings that are floating right above your capital, each with the ability to kill all life in the distance of 25,000 light years and fires them point blank.
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Of course the Forerunners survived and were able to create Offensive Bias to finish off the Flood but the damage had been done. But then again this is no different from the fall of the empire where all it took was a mistake (palpatine being in the death star 2) to end it.
“But then again this is no different from the fall of the empire where all it took was a mistake (palpatine being in the death star 2) to end it.”
Actually, the Empire is still kicking even 130 years after Return of the Jedi. It just calls itself the Empire-in-Exile now (see also: Fel Empire, Imperial Remnant). It didn’t collapse when Palpatine died.
Unless you’re a movie vs EU nazi, of course.
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Also, not that it matters in in regards to the debate, but the Forerunners were goddamn retards. It’s the only reasonable explanation as to why it took them decades of losing whole planets to decide the Flood was *maybe* something they should deal with, and why they didn’t seem to notice or care when Mendicant Bias disappeared with a Halo for years after talking to one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. It boggles the mind.
“It’s the only reasonable explanation as to why it took them decades of losing whole planets to decide the Flood was *maybe* something they should deal with,”
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Frankie stated a day ago in a interview that the Terminals in Halo 3 aren’t the complete story and that Halo 4 will correct these as well as explaining why they’re incorrect.
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“…when Mendicant Bias disappeared with a Halo for years after talking to one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy.”
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Wasn’t he supposed to interrogate them? How would the Forerunners know that the Precursor could mind_?
an* interview.
“It’s the only reasonable explanation as to why it took them decades of losing whole planets to decide the Flood was *maybe* something they should deal with”
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I do believe they explain in the second book of the Forerunner Trilogy as to why the Forerunners had such a difficult time dealing with the Flood. Basically they explained that much of the Forerunners’ military might was no longer needed since the San ‘Shyuum/Human War.
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They no longer had anything in the galaxy to fear from and they believed the Flood that once plagued the Human population to be a fabricate excuse.
Why are people obessing over halo:cryptum. I would argue that the forerunner’s feat in halo:glasslands is the most impressive of them all.
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And are people still aguring that the award is false? The forerunners have advantages in firepower, FTL and industry.
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The GE has the force. That’s it.
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So is there any arguement that anybody can make that might allow the GE to win?
“Why are people obessing over halo:cryptum”
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That’s a very odd question to ask. They Cryptum so often because its one of the few books that allows to get an understanding of Forerunner ships, weaponry, and technological innovations.
‘That’s a very odd question to ask. They Cryptum so often because its one of the few books that allows to get an understanding of Forerunner ships, weaponry, and technological innovations.’
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Yeah, but I must have seen the same 3-4 quotes from cryptum about a hundred times now in the last 5 or so pages. And not one comment has mentioned anything about halo:glasslands in which arguably the impressive feat the forerunners have to date.
Which would be what exactly? Are you referring to their ability to compress a Dyson sphere the size of Earth’s orbit to that of a soccer ball?
‘Which would be what exactly? Are you referring to their ability to compress a Dyson sphere the size of Earth’s orbit to that of a soccer ball?’
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Yeah, that and the fact they managed to create/move a sun into another solar system create a a dyson sphere with a diameter of about 300 million kilometers in diameter or about 2 AUs around said sun and then use a fractal slipspace bubble to create a time dilation effect with a factor of twenty with even more fractal bubbles within fractal bubbles to create any even stronger time dilation effect within the sharpened shield. The inside of the sphere is about 550 million times the surface area of Earth which is a about surface area of 255 quadrillion km^2.
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All of which is completely habitable and can be altered to change the temperature, humidity, ratios of gases in the atmosphere, and even gravity to commedate a variety of species.
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Considering the thickness of the sphere as well as the density of the super-material it’s constructed, some calcs I’ve seen put it at having 282 quadrillion km^3 of material which considering the time taken to build it… Again, I’ve seen calcs put it at the forerunners assembling 1,120,716 cubic kilometers of material per second for ONE shield world.
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That’s the equivalent of manufacturing the second Death Star every five minutes, non-stop, for nearly eight thousand years – or stripping away an Earth sized planet every nine days.
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And of course there’s fact that the forerunners manged to move/create a sun sightly smaller than our own into a already existing planetary system and build a dyson sphere over it… without destabilising the entire planetary system. The same thing applies when the sharpened shield is brought into real space. It manages to do so without sending every planet and the sun in the planetary system pinwheeling around.
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And then there’s the whole compress a Dyson sphere the size of Earth’s orbit to that of a soccer ball thing. That and the whole planet made out of trillions of onyx sentinels guarding said compressed shield world, the whole construct being capable of exaton firepower. Which is kind of pointless considering that the shield world is practically invulnerable to outside force.
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Well then.
@Mike
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“even the U.S. has multiple contingencies in that event. the forerunners were a galactic spanning race with thousands/millions of inhabited planes right? so either they didn’t have a good contingency plan, or they had all their eggs in one basket. penis plot device of stupidity to the face. not their fault, game’s story creator’s fault.”
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The Forerunner contingency plans were fine. They just didn’t account for the Flood be created/control by an entity that’s even better at giving the laws of physics the middle finger then they were. The aftermath of the Battle of the Capital had Slipspace travel and communication throughout the entire galaxy slowed to a crawl and the Domain – basically a galactic internet that held their entire history and the minds of ‘dead’ Forerunners – completely blocked off/destroyed.
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@Zazax
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“Also, not that it matters in in regards to the debate, but the Forerunners were goddamn retards. It’s the only reasonable explanation as to why it took them decades of losing whole planets to decide the Flood was *maybe* something they should deal with, and why they didn’t seem to notice or care when Mendicant Bias disappeared with a Halo for years after talking to one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. It boggles the mind.”
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It didn’t take the Forerunners decades to respond to the Flood; it took them decades (going by the Terminals) to finally pull out the really big guns and start blowing up entire star systems at first contact with Flood forces. And last time I checked we don’t know what the Forerunner government’s reaction to Mendicant Bias going AWOL was, only that he and the Halo disappeared for 43 years after releasing the Timeless One.
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Cryptum on the other hand paints a different then the Terminals. It’s mentioned that the Flood have only managed to infect 12 outer rim systems over a period of 300 years. That’s it; 300 years and all the Flood managed to do was just slightly miff the few Forerunners that knew of them. Then the Timeless One decided it was time to troll the galaxy and the Forerunners actually had to take the threat of magic space zombies raining from the skies seriously.
edit: oops, please delete this
Not all of the Disqus comments are gone, apparently.
not to forget the forerunners were fighting a civil war: the master builder(a maniacal dictator who wishes to use the halos to rule the galaxy and keep him in power) and his forces engaging lifeworkers(doctors) and their forces.
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secondly mendicant bias disabled the armor of all forerunners making it crush them unless they can take it off quickly enough. this makes them vulnerable to infection by the flood via spores or infection forms with nothing to fight them with but their claws
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all this is in primordium
Well now that we have more information on the Forerunners (and their weapons such as Prometheans) this match should be a little more debatable.
and becoming more of a stomp(i think)
So what do the Forerunners do about force ghosts, and if a force user becomes one, do they count as being out of the fight?
I would say so. Unless I am misinformed, they can’t really do much while being all ghosty.
Wasn’t nihilus some weird “i’m only alive because my hate but i’m just robes and a mask” kinda thing? He was wrecking people’s days
@BillDing at #4753
Especially not all the brain-dead ones, either.
@Primus at #4759
Nihilus turned out to be some kind of early Force Exarch of some kind if I heard right.
“So what do the Forerunners do about force ghosts, and if a force user becomes one, do they count as being out of the fight?”
-usually things are considered out when killed once in factpile matches, but in this case it’s a little more complicated. I see them as being still there for information/advice purposes, but unable to qualify for SW still being in the fight if it’s just them.
Exar Kun managed to burn one of the NJO’s students to death as a force ghost, but that’s about all I can remember them doing off the top of my head that hurt someone. If it counts for anything, Marka Ragnos was capable of possessing Tavion Axmis after becoming a ghost. If Obi-Wan is to be believed, you become more powerful after death, and since it’s becoming “one with the force” while still retaining individuality, it does make sense (but I really can’t think of any examples of force users outperforming their living feats dead atm).
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Hypothetically, maybe a Sith take control of some random Forerunner and make them use their weapons against them? Palpatine took control of his clone bodies (and I believe Luke as well for an extremely short time, but I’m not sure).
Actually wait, in Kotor 2, Sith spirits could summon Hssisses (creatures that hunt force users capable of hiding their presence in the force and cloaking with the force) to attack the player if they disturbed the dead. Additionally, the dark side presence in a few tombs and caves created apparitions related to the Exile’s experiences (and future) that could hurt them, and in the original Kotor, you could literally fight the force ghost of Ajunta Pall, (come to think of it, most times force spirits are destroyed that we know about occur after a living force user actually fights the spirit) but he’s very regretful of his actions as a dark Jedi (canonically, Revan doesn’t chooses the lightside options in the Tomb, and he doesn’t fight Pall), and apparently most Sith spirits go insane over time.
Two questions for everyone
1. Empire lost because Forerunner’s have crazy production right?
2. What year is the Empire in?
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I think if the Empire is in the Byss era, then the Galaxy Gun and Sun Crushers, possibly along with Dark Troopers should give them a big edge. Then again, I don’t know a great deal about the Forunners, so they might be able to take it.
@epp
1. yes
2. no idea
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well the galaxy gun and sun crushers are not as effective as the forerunner equivalent.The forerunners use their battleships to do that plus the sun crusher will probably be wasting it’s rounds as forerunners move their planets around at war.During the Human-Forerunner war the forerunners moved their planets around using slipspace reducing the odds of human forces finding their planets which they did
@epp
1. yes
2. no idea
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well the galaxy gun and sun crushers are not as effective as the forerunner equivalent.The forerunners use their battleships to do that plus the sun crusher will probably be wasting it’s rounds as forerunners move their planets around at war.During the Human-Forerunner war the forerunners moved their planets around using slipspace reducing the odds of human forces finding their planets which they did.
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if i made any mistakes please correct me i do not want my faults to cause confusion
Just because the Forerunners at their Prime could beat out the Galactic Empire does not automatically mean they can beat every Star Wars faction ever noted, modern or otherwise by default.
i did not say that…did i CC?
I think the most important question right now is whether or not the Forerunners have FTL much better than the other Halo forces, as Star Wars beats Halo easily in that regard. Regarding that, the Galaxy Gun firing planet-busters through hyperspace could devastate Halo’s industry, taking out their factories with ease. Also, the Empire at one point made a nanovirus that could be tailored to specific species or even people, was extremely easy to spread, and killed on contact, that would be a huge boon here, as world Force Storms.
yes they do but if it is better than star wars i do not know. all i can remember offhand is that forerunners can go from one side of the galaxy to another i hours and worried a young forerunner that they might go out of the galaxy
@Mr. Happy at #4768
You didn’t, but I was just letting you know.
Well Bornstellar talked about how the journey between the capital and his home took 2 hours normally. There is a quote involving 20,000 light years, when he’s going home in the Yatch. It might be referring to the capital. In hours at most they crossed tens of thousands light years (didact’s ship).
I believe that the consensus I guess, would be 1 hour per light year on a normal forerunner traffic galaxy. The didact crossed installation 03 to Earth in about 2 minutes.
Also, forerunners are immune to diseases in armour, and they wear armour for most of their lives. It’s rare that they go without armour.
Forerunners can build so much so fast… A world like Tatooine were the riches are burried might produce several ships in such a little amount of time! And they could move their planets. Imagine moving requiem or another shield world, perhaps a small one to faciltate transport and affordability to one of the stars in the unexplored part of the galaxy.
Then the forerunners are hidden and they can take local planets to get resources to make their ships.
“I believe that the consensus I guess, would be 1 hour per light year on a normal forerunner traffic galaxy.” That would make the Forerunners orders of magnitude slower than the GE.
Also, ” We were moving out-
ward along the great spiral arm that held both the Orion
complex and Erde-Tyrene – just a few tens of thousands of
light-years.
Hours at most would pass for us.” For some reason, I think that’s faster than a light year per hour, but that’s still impossibly vague, and from what I can tell, probably slower than most GE ships (pretty sure a class 0.5 hyperdrive is approx. 20,000 lightyears per hour).
Here: forums.spacebattles.com/threads/forerunner-feat-thread.236388/
Slipspace.
Star Wars ships use routes mostly. It can take days to get to a particular destination depending on the route.
I wonder what would happen if the forerunners used one of their solace installations to stop the death of a star shot by a Star Wars supernova inducing weapon.
That would be 10,000 light years per hour with a council ship. Remember that they can slipspace in atmosphere and exit there too. If they choose to do so of course. Also halo has communications while in slipspace.
@ CC at 4771
never mind then
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i also remember the portal system can be strained if too much move through it at once but slipspace SHOULD be unaffected n i remember when the capital was under attack ships came from all over the galaxy immediately.this shows their comms is also very fast
Also, two days until we see the power of the Promethean weaponry, the anti-flood one. Should be interesting.
Um erickyboo IIRC is if I recall correctly just saw that one my bad
I now know that.
So, forerunners. What do we have, most of the stuff here would likely be base for the Star Wars vs halo contemporary if all goes well.
Finally something from Halo gets an FP award!
P.S. I know that Chief has one or two
“Even with EU Empire, the Forerunners win as they can simply out-class anything the Empire has.”
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Uh…
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Seeing as this fight has gone on for as long as it has, I’m going to assume this was a limited era of the Empire and not EU. Otherwise, I don’t see Forerunners coming out on top at all.
Well it says they are at the height of there power so EU could be there
Then how the heck did this get an award?
No Idea but theb again maybe EU wasn’t in it because from what I heard about EU they are powerful so, never know
See, that’s why I’m so confused. EU SW gives even the Galactic Federation (Metroid) a run for its money depending on the circumstances. I have no idea how EU Empire could possibly have lost this.
“See, that’s why I’m so confused. EU SW gives even the Galactic Federation (Metroid) a run for its money depending on the circumstances. I have no idea how EU Empire could possibly have lost this.”
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Think it’s because of the forerunner lore that’s been coming in and giving them a boost. Or something like that.
@Marcel
Because the Forerunners would have steam rolled them even in EU. Simple as that.
I’m not sure about when the award was given, but height of their power Forerunners are stupidly powerful. So much so that they are out of context from their previously implied power.
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Their previously implied power would have put them close to Galactic Federation power, perhaps a bit higher, but limited in mobility.
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Currently they have vastly surpassed their mobility handicap (which should not have been allowed to happen because one of their own requirements for progressing through their own tech tier list is intergalactic travel, which they said they did not have in the tier list but suddenly do have in the novels; same with the other requirement of advancing evolution at will, which the Lybrarian did to the Chief in Halo 4, which again is something the Forerunners themselves said they could not do but suddenly they can).
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Basically, Greg Bear happened and he canonically wanked the Forerunners to a level that surpasses Metroid-level wonkiness.
@OriginalA
Oh yeah, because before, the empire wasn’t ALREADY boned when it came to ship to ship engagements because of the power and numbers discrepancy between Forerunner ships and their own and the Forerunners weren’t ALREADY highly mobile.
Even with out the Greg Bear books, you have to consider some of the already established Forerunner abilities.
in “The Thursday War”, the UNSC took advantage of the time-bending effects of the Forerunner shield world bubbles to cultivate Sangheili crops and live stock (which apparently, would take months to mature) in what seemed like a matter of days, weeks at most. In the book, they were making GMOs that would poison the elites if necessary.
If the forerunner used this technology to “speed up” their wartime production, it wouldn’t matter how long the process itself took. They could just adjust their “space-time” bubble to artificially speed up production.
All they’d need is resources, and given that the forerunner seem to be able to harvest entire planets, My guess is that the Empire would have a very difficult time defeating the Forerunner.
How quickly do you think the Empire can replace a Star Destroyer? How much do you want to bet its not as fast as the Forerunner can produce an equivalent vessel?
Also, just a side now, I’m curious to know if the starwars “Shields” would protect their crews from the “composer”.
actually Halo doesn’t even need that to win they build kilometer long vessels in minutes so there is no point talking about who can outproduce who
@Mr. Happy
Well, think about it. How do you suppose they build those huge warships so quickly?
I suppose there is that whole “seed to starship” deal in the first Forerunner book, but still.
Bottom line, the Forerunner are too “Alien” for the Empire to beat (LOL, irony…)
@OriginalA
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[I’m not sure about when the award was given, but height of their power Forerunners are stupidly powerful. So much so that they are out of context from their previously implied power.]
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…Are you sure you’re talking about the same Forerunners as everyone else here?
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“More or less. Technically, this installation’s pulse only has a maximum effective radius of twenty-five thousand light years. But once the others follow suit, this galaxy will be quite devoid of life, or at least any life of sufficient biomass to sustain the Flood.” – 343GS, Halo: Combat Evolved, 2001
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“After exhausting every other strategic option, my creators activated the rings. They, and all additional sentient life within three radii of the galactic core, died, as planed. Would you like to see the relevant data?” – 343GS, Halo 2, 2004
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The Spartans gathered as well to listen. In truth, while they understood the scientific principles that led Dr. Halsey to her conclusions, they still didn’t quite believe them.
“We start with this so-called sun.” She pointed straight up and then gestured to the data on her screen. “Spectra and energy output are consistent with a G2-type dwarf, one of slightly smaller dimensions than Sol.
“Next, you will note the curvature of this world, concave, as seen through Linda’s sniper scope.” She tabbed to a new screen and it sketched the star and a curve that arced to complete a full circle.
“Extrapolating, I calculate a diameter of three hundred million kilometers, two astronomical units, or a radius equivalent to the distance of the Earth orbiting its sun. “Conclusion?” She paused for dramatic effect. “We are inside a Micro Dyson sphere.”
Ash pulled off his helmet and vigorously scratched his head with both hands. “That can’t be right,” he protested. “We stepped through the rift and showed up here instantaneously. Even in Slipstream space it would have taken some time to travel to another star”
“Entirely true,” Dr. Halsey said, “but we have not left Onyx.”
“This is the part I don’t get,” Kelly muttered.
“The Forerunners’ grasp of Slipspace technology was far more advanced than ours or the Covenant’s,” Dr. Halsey explained. “I believe this sphere resides in the center of the planet, encapsulated and protected by a Slipspace bubble of compressed dimensionality.” – Halo: Ghosts of Onyx, 2007dys
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So what exactly has Greg Bear done to the Forerunners that surpasses the ability to kill virtually all life in a sphere 300,000 light years across instantly or shove a 1.37 solar mass dyson sphere into a slipspace bubble 20 cm across? Or any of the other pre-Bear shit the Forerunners got up to like destroying entire stellar systems.
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[Their previously implied power would have put them close to Galactic Federation power, perhaps a bit higher, but limited in mobility.
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Currently they have vastly surpassed their mobility handicap (which should not have been allowed to happen because one of their own requirements for progressing through their own tech tier list is intergalactic travel, which they said they did not have in the tier list but suddenly do have in the novels; same with the other requirement of advancing evolution at will, which the Lybrarian did to the Chief in Halo 4, which again is something the Forerunners themselves said they could not do but suddenly they can).]
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…
That the Trier System was tossed out years before Greg Bear was contracted, dude. Hell, not only was it contradicted before Halo 3 was released; Halo 3 itself contradicts the Tier System!
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Halo: Ghosts of Onyx: A UNSC Prolwer following in the slipspace wake of the Forerunner Keyship managed to cross the 12,500-25000 LY between Delta Halo and Earth in a few hours (IIRC one of the comics, Bloodlines or something like that, had the Keyship bouncing around the Sol System for nearly a week before dropping into Earth orbit for some reason).
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“Two to the eighteenth light years from the galactic center, to be precise.” – 343GS, Halo 3, 2007
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The Ark was located 262,144 light years beyond the Milky Way galaxy. It’s not Bear’s fault that no one took the time to look at the numbers when writing the Tier System.
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[Basically, Greg Bear happened and he canonically wanked the Forerunners to a level that surpasses Metroid-level wonkiness.]
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No, this is just yet another case of someone forgetting previous feats. Like the Keyship crossing tens of thousands of light years on a fraction of its max. output or the Jupiter-sized factory (capable of construing a 10,000 km diameter Halo in 3 months) located 200,000 light years beyond the outer rim.