Suggested by L-W
Interesting match here. For me, my choice comes down to which ship I would want to be on if I was a passenger on the ship. For my money, I would take the Enterprise for the win here.
What say you?
Pillar of Autumn Vs Enterprise D
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I would to have to go with the enterprise, shes got holodecks, a big old bar, you can a huge suite to live in, with a replicator then can produce any food and drink you want, added that she better armed and shielded for my protection.
she visits more interesting planets with strange and unusual lifeforms on them that will probably not try to launch a holy war against me.
unlike the pillar of autumn which is miltary vessel, so not much in the realm of creature comforts, if i get a room it will most likely be tiny and have to share with 3 other marines or if im unlucky i’ll get thrown into a cyro-tube
Although take into account that this match was not intended to qualify which vessel you would rather seek passage on dependent on the environment, after all what kind of retarded versus match is that? If given the option between driving a luxurious Porsche along the Hawaiian coast or driving a Tank through the middle of a heated war zone with little probability of survival, anyone everyone with a functioning cortex will always go with the option that doesn’t involve fear, discomfort and the certain likelihood of death. Yet pitch a Porsche and an M1 Abrams in battle and the victor will remain unquestionable in every scenario that doesn’t involve a nuclear warhead being strapped to the Porsche.
Initially this was to test the merits of a low tech high performance vessel against a high tech low performance vessel; so why out of the dozens of postulated mecha battles on Factpile, why are we doing something so different for this scenario?
Now on the side note of assuming how combat would evolve between both combatants; a scenario which attempts to be generous to both sides would have the Enterprise-D being able to kill or cripple the Pillar of Autumn with a full salvo from all of its weapons and hopefully breech a vital area in the rather solid armour construct, and the Pillar of Autumn being able to single shot kill the Enterprise-D with a clipping hit from a MAC round (Trek shielding doesn’t handle large KE impacts too well), or by overwhelming the Federation vessel with thousands upon thousands of Archer missiles launched in salvos of several hundred each. So it would boil down to who gets the first really good shot in.
One problem with the MAC (in all fairness to Star Trek) is that it’s an unguided weapon, and at very long range, that can be a crippling weakness. If the Trek ship tries to close to typical onscreen combat range before firing, it’s toast. But if it eschews phasers and fires salvo after salvo of homing photon torpedoes at long range (although most of its photorps appear to also be unguided; perhaps this is a cost-saving measure), it might be able to tear up the Pillar of Autumn without much realistic fear of being hit in return. If the Pillar of Autumn point-defense weapons are capable of shooting down a torpedo given time to track it (which it would have, if the torpedoes are fired from long range), then the situation becomes considerably trickier for the Enterprise captain.
the pillar doesnt have shielding, obviously, so its vitals are more exposed.
however, the MAC gun might be able to punch a hole in the enterprises shields.
also, can the UNSC board the enterprise? if so, the trekkers are fucked.
the enterprise is equiped with advanced sensors, and transporters which should give it an advantage over the pillar of autumn in combat, since the could in theory beam photon torpedos into critical areas bypassing the hull entirely.
but this depends on if the sensors can penetrate the pillars hull, and the range of the transporter.
Are we including some of Star Trek’s tech that they use in only one episode, and forgotten about in the next episode, or are we dismissing them?
What’s the range on the MAC and Archer missiles? The Enterprise’s torpedoes have a range of ~300,000km. They’re also shielded, so I don’t think point defense weapons are going to be able to shoot them down, depending on the type of point defense weapons they are.
Also, would the Archer missiles even be capable of hitting the Enterprise? At Full Impulse, she can scoot around at 1/3c. I doubt the Enterprise is manuverable enough to evade the missiles, but even at 1/4 impulse, that still puts her at 8% the speed of light. Isn’t that faster then the MAC round?
Granted, Federation ships usually have to slow down by quite a margin to reliable hit a target, but the fact that the Pillar of Autmun is a lumbering monolith of solid metal, she should be a relativly easy target to hit. It should be feasible for a captain of sufficient skill to close in and circle around, out speeding the Archer missiles, let off a volley, then accelerate agian before the missiles strike. And the MAC gun would be almost impossible to actually hit the Enterprise with unless they actually just sat there like a deer in the headlights going ‘duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh’. Or go ‘Kinetic Weapon? HAH! WE R IMPEERVI0US’ before being gutted.
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As an afterthought, Star Trek is such a /facepalm. Given the technology they posesses, they could make some devestating warships if they actually used some basic military designs and tactics.
I would like to see a covenant assault carrier againts the Enterprise.
I think that would be a lot more even.
Where the hell are my stars !?
What I would like to know is how effective would the Enterprises phaser’s would be against the Autumns armor. Would it carve away at it piece by piece or would it just completely blast through everything in it’s path. Plus the Enterprise is fairly agile. I think the autumn is at a major disadvantage since it’s most powerful weapon outside of nukes is on it’s bow meaning it has to point at it’s target and if the Enterprise can avoid being directly in front of it, then all it has to worry about are Archer missiles, the point-defense autocannons, and any launched nukes though I have no clue how effective nukes would be against he Enterprise.
There’s seems to be quite a few misconceptions regarding just how effective the Pillar of Autumn is in combat:
1) “the MAC gun might be able to punch a hole in the enterprises shields.”
No question about it.
During the episodes “The Jem’Hadar” and “Tears of a Prophet” we saw untouched warships reduced to bisected hull plating when Jem’Hadar fighters traveling at speeds of 1km/s kamikaze the Federation and Klingon fleet for maximum effect (the illustrated point being that Jem’Hadar warriors would be willing to thoughtlessly sacrifice themselves in the destruction of the enemy).
A 600 ton MAC round traveling at 0.4c (if we go by the Factpile law of canon) would turn a Federation vessel inside out before the shields could even register that something passed through.
2) “The Enterprise’s torpedoes have a range of ~300,000km.”
Whilst this is the effective range against stationary targets, we never see Trek engagements take place at such ranges. Photon torpedo accuracy is excellent against targets which are either immobile or traveling in a predictable path; a photon torpedo struck a 1.5 meter target from 80,000km away in “The Changeling”. This is not surprising- active guidance systems like those in 20th century cruise missiles correct and refine their courses as they approach their targets so that the range is irrelevant to the accuracy (a cruise missile has the same target accuracy from 10km away as it does from 400km away). The same would probably be true for photon torpedoes, which use active guidance systems which are effective against predictable moving targets, but not against vessels that can pull multiple thousand G accelerations.
3) “At Full Impulse, she can scoot around at 1/3c. I doubt the Enterprise is manuverable enough to evade the missiles, but even at 1/4 impulse, that still puts her at 8% the speed of light. Isn’t that faster then the MAC round?”
Impulse apparently allows it to achieve high relativistic speeds in excess of 0.25c although such speeds are normally not used and the canon suggests that combat incidents always occur at low sublight relative velocities of several km/s. This is supported by the various onscreen combat incidents in the Star Trek canon; we never see any combat in Star Trek where the relative velocities of the combating ships are high (and by “high” I mean “relativistic”, rather than fighter-plane speeds).
4) “but the fact that the Pillar of Autmun is a lumbering monolith of solid metal”
Hardly. Novels seem to indicate that despite her appearance, UNSC vessels are capable of linear accelerations measured between 40,000G’s (although I always do remain weary of the high end figures) and 12000G’s as a low end figure, whilst performing 30,000G maneuvers “on the dime”.
If the Halo novels and Star Trek canon are any indication to go by, the Pillar of Autumn is a surprisingly nimble and fast machine, equal if not greater than Federation vessels when observed at relative combat accelerations.
5) “And the MAC gun would be almost impossible to actually hit the Enterprise with unless they actually just sat there like a deer in the headlights going ‘duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh’. Or go ‘Kinetic Weapon? HAH! WE R IMPEERVI0US’ before being gutted.”
In fairness to MAC ordinance accuracy, they can reliably hit smaller than Enterprise Covenant vessels moving at greater sublight accelerations than any known Federation vessel. The unguided nature of the cannon is a big disadvantage (no doubt), but considering that it can supposedly launch a trio of tungsten projectiles across a space of 100,000 km (although oddly enough, according to the Encyclopedia it has an effective range of 10,000 km) in less than a second, a Federation captain and her crew would have to react with an almost inhumanly impossible speed to order his 700 meter wide target out of the path of three separate projectiles moving at 0.4c.
If the Enterprise gets in the way of the cannon, not even with a crew of Data-like Androids could you feasibly react in time to maneuver.
6) “I would like to see a covenant assault carrier againts the Enterprise.
I think that would be a lot more even.”
Are you fucking kidding me? HELL TO THE NO!
The Covenant Assault Carrier is only several orders of magnitude inferior to Star Destroyer class vessels, which in turn is hundreds of thousands times greater than an Enterprise vessel.
Heck, reasonable Covenant high end firepower place their disparity at five hundred photon torpedoes to one plasma torpedo, with an Assault Carrier launching dozens of these torpedoes every few seconds at ranges of thousands of kilometers.
Generally, Covenant vessels are vastly superior to Federation, Klingon, Dominion, Romulan and Borg craft; so it would be nowhere near an even match between the two.
“and any launched nukes though I have no clue how effective nukes would be against he Enterprise.”
Unknown.
Photon torpedoes are roughly equivalent to high-yield nuclear fusion weapons. We know that shielded Federation starships can withstand nuclear explosions (albeit with damage and radiation exposure to some crew) from “Balance of Terror”. This indicates that a single hit from a large nuclear weapon or photon torpedo could be expected to penetrate a TOS Federation starship’s shields (since the TOS Enterprise was threatened by 50 KT tactical nuclear warheads at one point), but several would be required to destroy it.
This is consistent with the pattern of battle in TOS, where a single volley of photon torpedoes (only two torpedoes with the old TOS launchers) heavily damaged a fully shielded Klingon warship in “Elaan of Troyius”.
The Pillar does have a wide range of nuclear ordinance though, ranging from hundreds of 30 megaton shaped charge nuclear mines (which are as effective as Photon Torpedoes in terms of yield) and only a handful of Shiva nuclear warheads, which seem to have yields measured in the gigaton range.
Question, are we to assume that the Enteprise crew will be competent and use their tech logically, or will they be the usual incompetents they are?
If they act Incompetent, I vote for the Autumn.
Crew competence is never taken into account during Mecha battles, otherwise the Pillar of Autumn would merely just ram the Enterprise at flank speed and the typical Federation response would be no more than “brace for impact!”, before being squashed under several hundred thousand tons of Titanium-A (a modus operandi response during every instance in which Federation vessels are charged at a few kilometers per second).
Ideally this is a match between one high technology, low powered vessel with the consistency of toilet paper, versus a low technology, high powered warship built like a Russian Tank; it is for this reason why I believe the battle is more even than people give it credit for based on shallow surface appearances alone. The belief that UNSC vessels are slow hulking mollusks is one of these surface estimations, whereas a deeper analysis of novel sources state that they are incredibly nimble, producing full turns and barrel rolls whilst accelerating at thousands of G’s during the midst of heated combat measured at light second ranges.
Oh, that makes this more interesting to me now.
Now, the Enterprise, like you said, needs to keep its distance. A MAC round would rip it to shreds. The Enterprise does have the advantage of using its transporters, but many things can easily interfere with it. If they can transport a few good torpedoes in the right place, they could damage the Autumn tremendously, but the Autumn is likely to keep the Enterprise involved with its complement of Archer missiles and worrying about the MAC round(if they can scan the Autumn correctly). The Enterprise might not get close enough. It could implement that short warp jump tactic, implemented in the first or second season of TNG by the Stargazer.
The Autumn is probably going to launch fighters. What are their fighter’s nuke yields?
Oh I wish we could use game feats. Star Trek captains used brilliant tactics involving EMC capabilities and shuttles. I doubt they could implement this technology in canon though.
“The Autumn is probably going to launch fighters. What are their fighter’s nuke yields?”
Longswords generally don’t enter combat with nuclear warheads, opting instead to use conventional high explosive missiles and rotary cannons to combat Seraphs. In only one instance has a Longsword been used to insert a Shiva missile within close range, which in fairness would utterly destroy the Enterprise with a multiple gigaton detonation.
Though you did bring up two interesting points:
A) A single Longsword, by virtue of being far faster than Jem’Hadar fighters, would outright destroy the Enterprise in a kamikaze strike; although this should only be considered a minor plausible threat by the virtue that UNSC pilots have only ever rarely demonstrated the fanatical zeal of their Jem’Hadar counterparts, and even if an entire squadron of fighters are pitted to the death against the Enterprise, I doubt we would see many Longsword pilots willing to fly through the bridge at high speeds.
B) With a squadron of Longswords, a dozen Pelicans, nearly eight thousand Archer missiles, a handul of Shiva missiles and possibly hundreds of nuclear and non-nuclear mines; the Enterprise can expect a lot of chaff to flood her defensive screens, more so than even the largest of fleet battles seen in the series.
“Oh I wish we could use game feats. Star Trek captains used brilliant tactics involving EMC capabilities and shuttles. I doubt they could implement this technology in canon though.”
If only. In the Trek games, the writers actually come up with plausible and devastating scenarios for Trek technology rather then everything being designed around dramatic effect. QCB cannon was one of my favorites, using a series of tractor beams to put massive stress on a ship by pushing/pulling the framework.
“If the Halo novels and Star Trek canon are any indication to go by, the Pillar of Autumn is a surprisingly nimble and fast machine, equal if not greater than Federation vessels when observed at relative combat accelerations.”
Interesting, I always figured the UNSC ships to be rather slow. Star Trek cannon is infuriating though. The high end figures used in the books directly contradict any fleet movement shown in the Halo games, yet anything other then what was shown during the Star Trek shows/movies is immediately discarded. Hell, even the speeds displayed by Star Wars ships on screen is hardly impressive. I think that the ‘figures’ calculated on screen in star trek should be thrown out the window in favor of the ‘data’ (I use the term loosely, since like you said, Star Trek has the consistency of Toilet Paper) or strictly use what was seen on screen in the Halo games as opposed to the books, since in both the Games and the movies the scenes were intended for dramatic effect rather then scientific accuracy.
“In fairness to MAC ordinance accuracy, they can reliably hit smaller than Enterprise Covenant vessels moving at greater sublight accelerations than any known Federation vessel. The unguided nature of the cannon is a big disadvantage (no doubt), but considering that it can supposedly launch a trio of tungsten projectiles across a space of 100,000 km (although oddly enough, according to the Encyclopedia it has an effective range of 10,000 km) in less than a second, a Federation captain and her crew would have to react with an almost inhumanly impossible speed to order his 700 meter wide target out of the path of three separate projectiles moving at 0.4c.”
Are you sure? According to Memory Alpha ( memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Galaxy_class#Propulsion_systems ) in “The Last Outpost” the Enterprise D can go from slow-reverse impulse to Warp 9 in 0.3 milliseconds. I’d love to see the Gs calculated for that.
The Enterprise D has the ability to disengage its saucer section, causing the pillar of autumn to divide its attention between to targets.
which might allow one half of the vessel to get behind the pillar, which i would imagine is her weak point (if anyone has any info on her rear defences to would be great) and attack her engines or even try beaming torpedos aboard.
1) “Star Trek cannon is infuriating though.”
I would also find a cannon that launches Star Trek to be infuriating, if not for the fact that a projectile in the form of a popular television series would make for a messy impact
2) “The high end figures used in the books directly contradict any fleet movement shown in the Halo games”
To be fair though, how often do we see UNSC vessels traveling at flank speed in relative velocity to stationary objects? I can only recall a few instances, yet those alone are difficult to calculate thanks to the botched editing of Halo cut scenes.
3) “Hell, even the speeds displayed by Star Wars ships on screen is hardly impressive.”
ANH: Tatooine space port, Millennium Falcon measured at 5000 G’s.
ANH: X-Wing traverse Yavin at 1700 G’s.
ANH: Death Star passes over Yavin at 100 G’s.
ESB: Executor leaves Asteroid field at 2000 G’s.
ROTJ: Executor boxing the Rebel fleet at Endor is measured at 6000-3000 G’s.
ROTJ: Executor turns into Death Star is 100,000 G’s at a minimum.
AOTC: Count Dooku escapes Geonosis at 20,000 G’s of acceleration.
4) “I’d love to see the Gs calculated for that.”
Warp drive uses a matter/antimatter-powered space-time continuum distortion process to drive a subspace bubble around the ship like a dimensional shell, otherwise it would simply be impossible for a vessel to accelerate to Warp 9 without some cross-dimensional technobbable (warp, hyperspace, slipspace) due to the constraints of all known physical laws.
Since the Enterprise possesses neither the ability to survive or generate infinite momentum, mass or energy; and that to accelerate an object of non-zero rest mass to c would require infinite time with any finite acceleration, or infinite acceleration for a finite amount of time, it is pretty clear that go from zero to Warp 9 would either require a non-existent or infinite state of acceleration. Given that the Enterprise supposedly sags like a pair of old tits in a gravity well, it is abundantly clear that we’re not witnessing an infinite state of acceleration.
Either way there are distinct limitations in how the Enterprise could dodge a MAC round, these include:
A) Typical engagement range: Out of hundreds of Trek episodes and dozens of movies, there are an untold number of incidents in which combat takes place between two vessels within a few kilometers of one another, sometimes within even a few meters.
B) Human reaction time: Whilst it must be noted that crew competence is not a consideration of mech battles, there is a finite limit to what human responses can achieve within a set period established by the initiation of combat.
In other words, whilst a ship can go from 0 to warp in under a second, the computer still has to register the MAC being charged and fired (assuming that it can), the order still has to be relayed and the pilot, navigator and possibly engineering staff have to actually physically implement the order. My new car can go from 0 to 100 in five seconds, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have to put the key in the ignition and release the hand brake.
5) “The Enterprise D has the ability to disengage its saucer section, causing the pillar of autumn to divide its attention between to targets.”
Saucer separation was only considered necessary for moving children and other non-military personnel (why would you have them on board anyway?) them to specialized rally points where the ship could seek safety from pursuers, in fact the saucer is almost always given the directive to seek safety by retreating to a starbase or other allied territory.
This really doesn’t strike me as much or a tactical consideration other than weakening the primary compartment and using a life boat as a minor distraction that a volley of several hundred Archers would make short work of.
I thought the Saucer section was where they kept the military personel and the rear end was used for non essential/civilian personel to retreat. Of course I’m only thinking about this because of the movie Generations were the Saucer section crash lands after being in combat and I forget the details of why they seperated.
I just noticed it says L-Won.
Wow am I slow to catch on.
Such a rare occurence.
The Back Section is the one for the military. It contains the Warp Core, and the Photon Torpedo Launchers, while the Saucer only has Phasers and does not have an advance warp engine, if it has any at all. They were evacuating to the Saucer in Generation only because the Warp Core was going critical.
your stars are back orpheus12!
Now why isn’t that I don’t see your stars ?
“To be fair though, how often do we see UNSC vessels traveling at flank speed in relative velocity to stationary objects? I can only recall a few instances, yet those alone are difficult to calculate thanks to the botched editing of Halo cut scenes.”
In the beginning of Halo 2, you can see capital ships moving past each other and the Super MAC stations. Alot of that is during Gameplay though. Another example is near the end of Halo 2, when the Covenant Fleet turns inside out fighting each other right beside High Charity. The next best is about half way through Halo 3, when the Sanghelli ships engage the Brute ships just outside the Ark, but none of them are all that great for calculating velocities. The point was though, I can’t count how many times I’ve seen Janeway or Picard say something along the lines of ‘close to 50 km’ and the ship is shown being parked like 400 meters away. The movies aren’t quite as bad for this, for example the ships pursuing the Enterprise in Insurrection were several kilometers away at least, and the Dog Fighting between the Reliant and the Enterprise often times occurred at several kilometers. Anyway, the point is that ever since I saw this in TNG: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth/oberth-galaxy.jpg and this in Generations: www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth/generations-oberth.jpg I haven’t taken any of the visuals literally or as a valid form of data collection, and rather go by dialog.
Anyway, I think a large portion of this match would be determined by the range at which the ships begin the fight. The Enterprise doubles as a science ship and has quite the assortment of sensors. It’s long Range sensors can detect a ship at 5 light years unless I’m mistaken, and at a range of a few light minutes, it should already be able to determine that the Pillar has no shields. Super dense metals block sensor scans, but the armor on the Pillar is Titanium-A, no? May be super sturdy, but certainly not ultra dense like neutronium. The Enterprise should be fully capable of determining exactly what armaments are onboard the Pillar well before either ship is within effective range, and a short warp jump or even a high impulse spurt would allow it to pop up right beside the pillar, unload a few volley’s of torpedoes (remember the Enterprise can fire 10 Photon Torpedos at a time. 2 spreads at 10x 50 megatons = a gigaton) right into the ships engines before the Pillar even knows they’re there. As for the MAC gun, I could see the crew making a ‘Crude but effective’ comment once they see the fact that most of the ship is built around the gun, rather then having the gun attached on afterwards. Detecting that monster alone would make them stay well clear of it.
I’m still rootin for the Enterprise. The fact that it can unload a gigaton of fire in the span of a few seconds doesn’t bode well at all for the unshielded Pillar of Autumn.
1) “In the beginning of Halo 2, you can see capital ships moving past each other and the Super MAC stations.”
Moving to form a ring around the SMAC stations, since the Admiral decreed that they would only move to intercept the Covenant once they entered their own firing range (although the SMAC stations started opening fire beyond visual range). Not a reliable depiction of flank speed.
2) “Another example is near the end of Halo 2, when the Covenant Fleet turns inside out fighting each other right beside High Charity.”
I calculated that at a cruising speed of 20km/s based on the dimensions of High Charity; although once again this is an instance of the Separatist and Loyalist fleets forming divisions and setting a defensive perimeter around their respective quarries, in which case it isn’t tactically viable to charge into picket lines of heavily armed warships. Not a reliable depiction of flank speed.
3) “The next best is about half way through Halo 3, when the Sanghelli ships engage the Brute ships just outside the Ark, but none of them are all that great for calculating velocities.”
Nothing in that entire cutscene could be used to calculate Covenant or UNSC sublight accelerations (other than the Forward Unto Dawn’s impressive 3000G deceleration), the fact that we know that both forces were racing to land troops on the Ark and deactivate the planetary shield grid should have been an indicator that neither fleet was interested in anything other than an up close and personal slug fest.
Thus High Charity took the entire fleet by surprise, even though the loose Flood-ified debris was falling at a mere 1-2 km/s (insignificant compared to their cruising speeds).
4) “The point was though, I can’t count how many times I’ve seen Janeway or Picard say something along the lines of ‘close to 50 km’ and the ship is shown being parked like 400 meters away.”
Neither dialogue or visuals must be negated in lieu of one another.
Dialogue is patently as subjective as visuals. There is always the problem that the character might be wrong, but that is not a matter of subjectivity for us, it’s a matter of in-universe characterization and the problems accruing to ‘real’ people, who are not perfect and who do not behave in perfectly accurate ways at all times.
But television and film are a visual medium, and science fiction is obviously based as much on effects as it is dialogue. Assuming that everything the characters say is the holy intent of the creators and the visuals are just pap is not only dubious, but also completely disrespectful of the work that the visual effects artists do – which is under the helm of the creators as much as the script – to make an episode or sequence work.
So when faced with a TV show whose producers have deliberately made it look a certain way, we cannot throw out proposed evidence in favor of another. We must look at all evidence, including historical context to deduce the most reasonable outcome.
(as a side note, I could not view those images – try re-posting them elsewhere)
5) “but the armor on the Pillar is Titanium-A, no? May be super sturdy, but certainly not ultra dense like neutronium.”
This is where I’m once again confounded by UNSC material science.
At several points throughout Halo lore UNSC vessels have been described as possessing remarkably low tonnage ratings; the Frigate for example is said to weigh only 4,000 tons (which I assume doesn’t include the contents such as crew, ammunition, fuel etc.) whilst the heavier UNSC capital ships are rated at around 90,000 tons.
My estimation is probably rather low since it assumes 90% of the vessel is hollow which is rather unlikely. But just for fun let’s say the ship’s half a meter thick armour DOES weigh 4,000 tons; based on the dimensions of 478x151x112 would tell us that the ship has a volume of about 2,020,984 cubic meters while 4,000 tons equals roughly 3,628,738 kilograms. Thus we have a volume of about 1.79 kilograms per cubic meter. Air has a mass of 1.204 Kilograms per cubic meter at about room temperature. it wouldn’t float in an Earth Like Atmosphere, but it would be extremely light as a result.
In fact no known metal on the periodic table comes close to this material (lithium is somewhere in the order of 50kg per cubic meter), yet it possesses such fantastical properties that it is a miracle of engineering that this substance can survive a person leaning against it for balance without shredding like wet toilet paper, let alone accelerating at thousands of G’s or taking double digit gigaton hits from Covenant plasma torpedoes. Either way the Pillar of Autumn is coated in a two meter thick layer of this stuff, so it can take a slugging before going down. Lest to say, we aren’t talking about bog standard titanium here.
6) Another component that makes the Pillar unique amongst UNSC Cruisers is not only the thickness of the armour, but the specialized structural bracing that honeycombed the interior. In “Halo: The Fall of Reach”, Dr. Halsey asked which ship Cortana chose for the original mission to capture a Covenant Prophet. Cortana chose the Pillar of Autumn for the skeletal structure, designed by Dr. Robert McLees. “…At the time, deemed unnecessarily over massed and costly due to series of cross-bracing and interstitial honeycombs… Halcyon-class ships, however, have a reputation for being virtually indestructible. Reports indicate these ships being operational even after sustaining breaches to all compartments and losing ninety percent of their armor.” This, obviously, implies that the Pillar of Autumn can take an immense beating, and as we saw throughout the novel and the subsequent events in “Halo: Combat Evolved”, she not only sustained several torpedo impacts (likewise in the double digit gigaton range), but a bracketing shot from a high gigaton to single digit teraton beam, dozens of strafing shots from Covenant Serpah bombers and remained at 9% operational capacity after hitting the surface of installation 04 at supersonic velocities.
7) On the issue of Federation “dog fighting”.
We have two clear examples now, of Federation weaponry failing to strike its target during Insurrection (one of the proposed movie examples). One example involves a So’na shuttle craft, and the other example involves a full-sized So’na warship. There are no mysterious invisibly distant targets at which these torpedoes might have been aimed (the stock excuse for “Way of the Warrior”). In fact, the second sequence allows us to estimate the range at which the Enterprise-E failed to hit its pursuer, because the So’na ship is less than 10 kilometres behind the Enterprise-E at the time this happens.
During one sequence, an aft-launched torpedo, fired from a Federation shuttle craft being piloted by Jean-Luc Picard and Worf. The target is another Federation scout ship, being flown by Data; the fired torpedo misses easily, even though Data has flown his ship in an almost totally straight line throughout this sequence and both vessels are traveling at near relative velocities. Of the two ships. Data’s scout is definitely larger than the Enterprise shuttle- this allows us to establish the size of the target that Picard and Worf were shooting at and missing against a target with these supposedly perfectly accurate Federation torpedoes.
Although whilst their ships occasionally do wallow about and exchange fire like early 20th century naval dreadnoughts, they are capable of maneuvering more quickly. However, they do not dogfight like late 20th century fighter aircraft. Their maneuvering tends to be a compromise between these two extremes, similar to the maneuvering of light corvette-class naval warships. They maneuver in combat, but in large sweeping turns and gentle arcs rather than brutal twists, turns, and rolls.
In “Maneuvers”, the USS Voyager executed evasive pattern “omega three” when confronted by a primitive Kazon warship. This maneuver did not seem to involve any discernible change of direction, and not only did Voyager fail to evade subsequent shots, but it could not even keep those shots from repeatedly hitting the same 10m wide spot. This proved to be a serious failing, since the Kazon warship quickly breached the Voyager’s shields in that spot, and sent a small projectile through it to breach the hull. In “Best of Both Worlds”, the USS Enterprise executed evasive pattern “riker alpha” when confronted by a Borg cube, and it merely turned to the left (at a rate which would have required several seconds for a 180 degree orientation change). Amazingly, this maneuver actually allowed the ship to evade a Borg weapon discharge. In Star Trek First Contact, the relative speeds of the Federation starships and the Borg cube were in the range of 300 m/s. The ships can obviously achieve far higher speeds than this, but extremely high relative velocities increase the difficulty of targeting, so this establishes the maximum relative speeds at which a Federation starship can maneuver while still being able to reliably target an enemy vessel (even one as large and unwieldy as a 3km Borg cube). It should be noted that similar relative speeds were seen in later battles such as the battles of “Sacrifice of Angels” and “Tears of the Prophets”.
We also know that space combat maneuvering (and the effect of distance) is effective in foiling or delaying Federation targeting efforts, as demonstrated by the following examples. Such as In Star Trek Genesis, we saw a Klingon vessel repeatedly fail to hit a 600 meter long, heavily damaged vessel fleeting at low speed. In “Arsenal of Freedom” we saw that a starship which decloaked for a full second could not be targeted by the Enterprise-D. This establishes a long targeting delay and raises serious questions about their computer systems. This would seem to suggest that a GCS targeting system requires a predictable velocity for at least one full second before it can reliably target anything, even at extreme close range. In “Way of the Warrior” we saw DS9 repeatedly miss incoming Klingon warships with both phasers and photon torpedoes, in spite of the fact that those warships were following very predictable flight paths, usually straight lines. Some Federation cultists dispute the misses, claiming that the weapons were merely targeting other vessels off-screen, but some of the scenes were shown from the perspective of DS9 itself, and the torpedoes could clearly be seen heading for nothing but empty space, in spite of their vaunted guidance and targeting systems. In “A Call to Arms” we saw DS9 miss numerous Cardassian and Dominion warships, as it did in “Way of the Warrior”. One crippled Cardassian warship actually managed to ram the station’s shields, even though it was more than 100 metres long and traveling in a perfectly straight line. Somehow, the DS9 targeting systems failed to hit it, even when it got into very close range prior to impact! As a result, the DS9 shields had to absorb the impact and explosion of the starship.
It is important to remember that direct observation of every Star Trek space combat incident since ST2 has failed to reveal a single incident in which starships engaged in combat at the long ranges and relativistic speeds. Ship-to-ship fire invariably occurs at ranges of a few kilometres at most, and any long-range fire is invariably directed at constant-velocity targets such as planets. This indicates that maneuvering impedes targeting, which is logical since maneuvering targets are more difficult to hit at long range due to beam propagation delay. There have been many suggestions that extremely high relative speeds occurred before ST2 (in TOS), but all of these incidents are based on interpretations of dialogue, rather than direct observation. ST2 was the very first time we were able to directly observe space combat, rather than relying on conjecture based on dialogue. In that incident, as well as each and every subsequent incident, we observed close ranges and sub-relativistic relative speeds.
doesnt the pillar have a few fighter wings?
i dont seem to remember the enterprise having fighters
I still belive the main concern for the pillar is the Enterprise’s transporter, which has a range of 40,000 kilometres.
[quote]
During the 22nd century, standard Earth transporter systems had a range of 10,000 kilometers; however, by the 24th century, standard transporter systems maximum range was about 40,000 kilometers, though a special type of transport, called subspace transport could beam over several light years. (ENT: “Rajiin”; TNG: “A Matter Of Honor”, “Bloodlines”) Many 24th century starships were equipped with an emergency transporter system, but these only had a range of at best ten kilometers. (VOY: “Future’s End”)
Although having a maximum range of about 40,000 kilometers, some conditions adversely affect the effective range. In at least one instance – due to missing components of Voyager’s primary computer systems, – the starship Voyager had to be within 500 kilometers of a planet’s surface to use transporters on Kathryn Janeway and the hologram character Leonardo da Vinci. (VOY: “Concerning Flight”)
For context, 500 kilometers above the surface of Earth would place the ship inside the ionosphere. [quote]
I am unsure how the Tianium-A armor will effect, the Enterprise’s sensors and targeting scanner’s, however the transporter has been shown on numerous occasions to be affected by certain minerals and energy fields.
So if the transporter can beam torpedoes onto the autumn, its game over since their specialized armor is designed to take massive amounts of external punishment, so a bomb detonating from within should do considerable damage.
However if the Enterprise cannot beam torpedoes onboard, if will go with the autumn.
I love how point #7 was nearly completely copy and pasted from www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/Maneuver1.html#CapitalShips
At least we’re on the same page. Oh, and it’s Star Trek Generations, not Genesis. I’d read the article, but the fact that the Picard maneuver even exists means that short-range warp jumps are viable strategies. In ‘War games’ Riker wanted to use a short range warp jump to get the edge they need on the Enterprise. Although, the fact that the Pillar can take triple digit gigaton blasts to the hull and keep on ticking means that the Enterprises’ weapons would be largely ineffective. However, I do have a question. If the Enterprise warped in and let a full Photon spread right into the Pillar’s bridge, what effect would it have?
However, we should resolve the sensor issue. If the Enterprise can penetrate the Pillar’s armor with scans, then they should be fully capable of transporting ordinance on board, or transporting Pillar of Autumn components off the ship. Or hell, abducting crew members. If Titanium-A is super light like you say, it couldn’t be super dense, which is usually the primary factor preventing transport. That or shields. It is possible that the energy buildup for the MAC would interfere with transport, but that’s only if ambient energy was being dispersed into the ship and not direct into the rounds.
www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth-size.htm is the article I got the pictures from. About half way through, under ‘Exterior’ it shows an image of the Oberth next to the Enterprise during a TNG episode and an image of an Oberth beside a Nebula class. The size disparity is so drastic, it’s mind boggling.
1) “I love how point #7 was nearly completely copy and pasted from ”
Mike Wong is a very reliable source for analyzing fictional events, and I have frequently cited or used materials form Stardestroyer.net with direct quotations, links, copy and pasting or mere paraphrasing (I can point to a dozen threads where I have).
So what puzzles me is, how is this new to you specifically? After all I’ve debated or been in debates with you on such subjects in the past, and quite frequently I’ve explicitly or implicitly used (in the case of paraphrased context) Mike Wong’s intellectual property with near wild abandon and have yet to provoke such a response. Perhaps this is another case where your memory failed you.
On a different note, food rich in amino acids is excellent for memory retention.
2) “If the Enterprise warped in and let a full Photon spread right into the Pillar’s bridge, what effect would it have?”
Unknown. Although since the Pillar is designed to operate with practically all of her hull stripped away, can perform 40,000 G barrel loops which place the cockpit within view of Seraph fighters without apparent risk and can survive supersonic impacts into hard granite; it must be either very tough, or capable of operating under a redundancy system if decapitated, otherwise the oft touted structural integrity would be borderline useless.
3) “If Titanium-A is super light like you say, it couldn’t be super dense, which is usually the primary factor preventing transport.”
Yet the bizarre exotic nature of such a material isn’t yet quantifiable and is clearly beyond known comprehension as to whether we could certify the usefulnessof such a tactic, in fact, all sorts of things block transporters; certain alloys, several hundred meters of rock, sensor jamming systems, ECM (although would Subspace ECM interact with UNSC grade ECM intended to disrupt Archer missiles and enemy communications?), ionic interference, ambient electromagnetic radiation.
Titanium-A is too much of a wild horse to rationalize at this point without a degree of certainty due to what could only be described as a degree of leniency between a high electron number and an impossibly low atomic weight.
Therefore we must analyze this one variable on a set basis much like any other:
Pros – Eliminates the need for shuttlecraft, near instantaneous.
Cons – Can be jammed by any number of conditions, even including the weak EM field of planets. Transport errors result in possible instant death or grievous injuries. Plus in fairness, I do tend to doubt transporter performance when a substation transformer for a fusion power plant was capable of blocking the transporter room signal.
4) “The size disparity is so drastic, it’s mind boggling.”
As I said, neither method of analysis is completely infallible or supersedes one another, otherwise there would simply be an absence of a television show as a visual medium altogether. As with anything else, evidence is compiled and analyzed based on an individual case by case basis, but we cannot intellectually abide by the fallacy that a few minor cases of questionable production on behalf of the producers (as stated: when faced with a TV show whose producers have deliberately made it look a certain way, we cannot throw out all proposed evidence of one bracket in favor of another) therefore overrules ALL evidence by fiat; to do so would be endemic to hypocrisy and doubt. In such a case we cannot allow our wishes to become the rigors of intellectual thought, otherwise we become prone to fancy rather than reason (otherwise known as the faith vs reason conundrum).
Unless there is a canon statement made on behalf of Paramount that states that all visuals must disregarded in lieu of one (every series is guilty of such mistakes), then we must continue to analyze as we always have beforehand; by logical discourse of all reasonable evidence.
George F. Will, the ever-eloquent back page columnist for Newsweek magazine, once said:
“Intellectual rigor annoys people because it interferes with the pleasure they derive from allowing their wishes to be the fathers of their thoughts.”
Likewise, based on the evidence, I believe that this is still a reasonably close match. On one hand you have the low tech equivalent of an F-22, on the other you have a high tech T-34 fitted with a modified AA chassis.
I would like to piont out that The Piller of Autumn does have longsword fighters. One of these is remotly controlled and carries a nuclear warhead. If the PoA sends out 3 groups of fighters, one with the nuke, and then makes more threatening manuevers with the other two, the 3rd with the nuke could sneak in and detonate. Add in constant fire etwen the 2 big ships and I think the PoA could win.
My post didn’t show up agian…. >.<
Hang in there, server moves are always a bit bothersome. – Admin
OK OK that DID NOT WORK. ummm I posted the wrong link. THIS is my blog, lol
@Soundnous – your link didn’t work either time, I went to the url provided and it says there is no blog even registered there. I have no problem touting your own blog, just make sure there is something there for us to read – Admin
You see,I forgot the “.” the first time, lol
——-
I am NOT a thing! My name is Leonard Church and you will FEAR MY LASERFACE!!!!
Dude, OUCH. That hurt. That link was real! Here let me post it again.
www.soundnouswriterblog.blogspot.com/
So…
everyone’s provided a lotta good info on the ship specs and armaments. How about the crew? Or more specifically, how good are the Captains and their 1st officers/equivalents compared to each other? When it comes to piloting/commanding feats, how do Captain Keyes and Cortana fair against Captain Picard and Commander Riker?
“everyone’s provided a lotta good info on the ship specs and armaments. How about the crew? Or more specifically, how good are the Captains and their 1st officers/equivalents compared to each other? When it comes to piloting/commanding feats, how do Captain Keyes and Cortana fair against Captain Picard and Commander Riker?”
Doesn’t matter.
Battles like this are about the traits of the ship, not the captian. The traits are all constants but captians or commanders can vary. Same goes for their thoughts. Using different commanders would result in different outcomes. Using the constants assures a probability for succes. I also think the commanders are outside help. The ships are piloted by a standard factpile ship-board AI.
The Autumn could fire a NOVA at the Enterprise and blow it to hell. I doubt the Enterprise could withstand a plaint killer.
Necropost FTW
The Pillar of Autumn Doesn’t carry NOVA Bombs
Something I made for same discussion on another site:
“unshielded torpedo”
Photon torpedoes are shielded. Glow you can see after firing torpedo – that is actually torpedo’s shield. Unshielded torpedoes are actually oval-shaped and black. However, their actual power is unclear – TNG TM puts it at 64 kilotons, while some other estimates (which I think are more accurate than technical Manuals beacouse of being based on actual observation of series) put it as high as 500 megatons. There are some that put it at 1 000 megatons, but I think that 500 megaton figure is more precise. About relatively small explosions seen in battles, that could be for budgetary reasons.
Mac round
Enterprise D has navigational deflector, designed to stop meteors, asteroids and space dust to crash into ship while moving at c. Given that slug moves at sub-light velocity, and Enterprise-D is capable of speeds up to 1 909 c (warp 9.6; it later gets upgraded to warp 9.9 capable engines – which is 3053 c), it should not be too complicated to deflect or simply divert round by using navigational deflector.
Energy is mv^2; so we can calculate that 1 kg stone at warp 9.6 (original maximum speed of Galaxy-class starship) is going to have 38 times impact force of PoA MAC slug.
(m is mass of object in kg, v is velocity in m/s)
speed of light is – 299 792 458 m / s). Impact force of MAC slug is 8.628×10^21 J while impact force of 1 kg stone at warp 9.6 is 3.275×10^23 J. If we take warp 9.9, to which Galaxy class ships are later upgraded (3053 c), impact of 1 kg stone is going to be 8.377×10^23 J or 97 times impact force of MAC slug.
You actually expect the Enterprise to be able to deflect not one but three MAC rounds (each with the force of over one teraton of energy). You know the very same projectiles that even Covenant starships have difficulty deflecting. That’s rich if you believe that is possible.
“Energy is mv^2; so we can calculate that 1 kg stone at warp 9.6 (original maximum speed of Galaxy-class starship) is going to have 38 times impact force of PoA MAC slug.
(m is mass of object in kg, v is velocity in m/s)
speed of light is – 299 792 458 m / s). Impact force of MAC slug is 8.628×10^21 J while impact force of 1 kg stone at warp 9.6 is 3.275×10^23 J. If we take warp 9.9, to which Galaxy class ships are later upgraded (3053 c), impact of 1 kg stone is going to be 8.377×10^23 J or 97 times impact force of MAC slug.”
Why are you talking about a stone going at warp 9.9? Any relevancy at all with that comment?
You…FUCKING TREKTARD! God damn it you piss me off.Honestly its like when L-W isn’t here to burn your stupid ass your like “hahahahah now that mean old smart person isn’t here i can spew out bullshit claims! No one will stop me! bwahahahhahhaha”, and then when he is here and makes a post burning your ass, your like “Hmm obviously i’m winning he hasn’t proven anything! bwahahahahahaha I am still king of the TrekTards!”
Yet, whenever L-W proves you wrong you continue to spew out bullshit. DID YOU EVEN READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU MADE ONE?! NO! I DOUBT IT! You probably went “hmm on noes its L-W he has already posted here…but he isn’t here now so TIME TO SPEW BULLSHIT! YAY” GTFO THE INTERNET TREKTARD.
Prime,calm yourself,you have given no contribution to the debate whatsoever,and yet that is entirely what you attempted to stop.
Don’t do it again,it’s a pure waste of space.
We’ve already shown how that Covenant tech is better than Federation tech in Covenant vs Federation. Covenant shields can barely take the impact of 1 MAC round. The PoA will fire 3 in quick succession.
1 archer missile can fully cripple a single UNSC cruiser. The PoA has 300 Archer missile pods. Each pod fires 26 Archer missiles. That is 7800 missiles. At once. Try stopping that.
It also has 4 Shiva Nuclear missiles. 1 being attached to a remote piloted Longsword interceptors.
PoA has 50mm autocannons for point defense – dropping the photon torpedoes before they get close. I doubt the shielding on the torpedoes will handle very many 50mm rounds hitting it.
The Enterprise-D doesnt have the shielding capable of protecting against the overwhelming firepower that PoA brings to the battle.
images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100614215255/halo/images/d/d4/Reach_E310_Campaign10.jpg
This picture clearly shows engagements occuring (at the Battle of Reach) at far greater ranges than ever seen in the Star Trek universe. At the Battle of Reach, MAC guns and Archer missiles engaged the Covenant at the hundreds of thousands km range. Phasers lose their energy and destructive force at long ranges. MAC rounds and Archer missiles technically have unlimited ranges as they are kinetic weapons, their forward energy will only be cancelled out when it comes in contact with another force ie gravity. Yet gravity appears only on masses (or blackholes). AND neither the MAC round the Archer missile will lose destructiveness at long ranges.
Face it Picard. Star Trek is weak compared to most other sci fi universes in terms of tech. The ONLY thing that allows Star Trek to win Universe Battles is the Q.
“Enterprise D has navigational deflector, designed to stop meteors, asteroids and space dust to crash into ship while moving at c. Given that slug moves at sub-light velocity, and Enterprise-D is capable of speeds up to 1 909 c (warp 9.6; it later gets upgraded to warp 9.9 capable engines – which is 3053 c), it should not be too complicated to deflect or simply divert round by using navigational deflector.”
Um, retard, objects moving faster than light have no mass – or at least a mass that can exist in any known physical context to be recorded (imaginary).
Your ability to continue failing at basic physics amuses me to no end.
“http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100614215255/halo/images/d/d4/Reach_E310_Campaign10.jpg
This picture clearly shows engagements occuring (at the Battle of Reach) at far greater ranges than ever seen in the Star Trek universe. At the Battle of Reach, MAC guns and Archer missiles engaged the Covenant at the hundreds of thousands km range. Phasers lose their energy and destructive force at long ranges. MAC rounds and Archer missiles technically have unlimited ranges as they are kinetic weapons, their forward energy will only be cancelled out when it comes in contact with another force ie gravity. Yet gravity appears only on masses (or blackholes). AND neither the MAC round the Archer missile will lose destructiveness at long ranges.”
Wait…tracer rounds can operate in a vacuum?
“Um, retard, objects moving faster than light have no mass – or at least a mass that can exist in any known physical context to be recorded (imaginary).
Your ability to continue failing at basic physics amuses me to no end.”
Hmm, I never understood that, What if this object was made with an incredibly dense material ?
Is it the fact that no known object with mass can handle the stresses of moving that fast ?
No mass in existence can travel at or exceed the speed of light according to the laws of relativity, the speed of light is a fundamental constant, which requires both infinite mass and energy to equal (and as the laws of thermodynamics state, is an impossible state to acquire). In classical special relativity, in order to move faster than the speed of light, a particle must have not zero mass – and inertia – but mathematically imaginary mass. If a Federation vessel had a mass simultaneously inside and outside of the Warp, it could not even exist without collapsing the universe.
Warp ramming is just one of those retarded concepts thought up by individuals with little to no understanding of how relativity actually works, and as seen in “Genesis” Galaxy-class shields cannot be made strong enough to permit safe passage through a low-density asteroid field, cannot deflect the heat of atmospheric re-entry causing the hull to heat up dramatically even before shields fail and that comparatively slow moving solar photosphere gas (plasma) appears to easily penetrate shields, even if its energy content is below the kiloton range.
Yes, thanks for the info.
“Why are you talking about a stone going at warp 9.9? Any relevancy at all with that comment?”
Beacouse upgraded Galaxy class starship can reach speed of warp 9.9. It does not matter if stone is moving towards starship at that speed, or vice-versa – their relative speeds will still stay same, and force of impact will stay same – 37.9 times larger than that of single PoA slug. And it is stated that single stone that hits ship at warp will destroy it if starship is not protected by navigational deflector or shields.
“We’ve already shown how that Covenant tech is better than Federation tech in Covenant vs Federation. Covenant shields can barely take the impact of 1 MAC round. The PoA will fire 3 in quick succession. ”
I was talking about navigational deflector, not deflector shields – navigational deflector is made specificaly to protect starship from fast-moving particles – and MAC slug falls into that category. And when you consider that navigational deflector can deflect 38 times kinetic energy that slug has – it hardly matters if it was going to be one slug, or three, or seven.
1 archer missile can fully cripple a single UNSC cruiser. The PoA has 300 Archer missile pods. Each pod fires 26 Archer missiles. That is 7800 missiles. At once. Try stopping that.
It also has 4 Shiva Nuclear missiles. 1 being attached to a remote piloted Longsword interceptors.
“PoA has 50mm autocannons for point defense – dropping the photon torpedoes before they get close. I doubt the shielding on the torpedoes will handle very many 50mm rounds hitting it.”
It can handle enough for some torpedoes to penetrate defences. And single torpedo can destroy PoA.
“The Enterprise-D doesnt have the shielding capable of protecting against the overwhelming firepower that PoA brings to the battle.
images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100614215255/halo/images/d/d4/Reach_E310_Campaign10.jpg”
These fighters are half mile away at best. It does show that Covenant Seraphs have shields, but hardly anything more.
“This picture clearly shows engagements occuring (at the Battle of Reach) at far greater ranges than ever seen in the Star Trek universe. At the Battle of Reach, MAC guns and Archer missiles engaged the Covenant at the hundreds of thousands km range. Phasers lose their energy and destructive force at long ranges. MAC rounds and Archer missiles technically have unlimited ranges as they are kinetic weapons, their forward energy will only be cancelled out when it comes in contact with another force ie gravity. Yet gravity appears only on masses (or blackholes). AND neither the MAC round the Archer missile will lose destructiveness at long ranges.”
Photon torpedoes in TNG are seen to have ranges of more than 300 000 kilometers. And weaponry is constantly upgraded. Also, I don’t know what would prevent Federation from closing in using warp drive and then firing torpedoes – which would obliterate any UNSC ship or station.
“Face it Picard. Star Trek is weak compared to most other sci fi universes in terms of tech. The ONLY thing that allows Star Trek to win Universe Battles is the Q.”
You forgot Borg Collective?
-gets its ass kicked
-analyzes
-adapts
-kicks the ass of those who kicked its ass
Only thing Borg couldn’t handle from HALO would be the Flood.
“You forgot Borg Collective?
-gets its ass kicked
-analyzes
-adapts
-kicks the ass of those who kicked its ass”
That must be why they’ve conquered the galaxy already…oh wait. Species 8472 is a great example. The Hirogen and Voth also have not been conquered despite bordering Borg territory.
Borg beating Halo… you’re so funny! If you even knew what kinetics and projectiles were, you wouldn’t be talking.
“The Hirogen and Voth also have not been conquered despite bordering Borg territory.”
And wh says they won’t be?
I see Picard is failing to respond to me, again.
Why am I not surprised?
“No mass in existence can travel at or exceed the speed of light according to the laws of relativity, the speed of light is a fundamental constant, which requires both infinite mass and energy to equal (and as the laws of thermodynamics state, is an impossible state to acquire). In classical special relativity, in order to move faster than the speed of light, a particle must have not zero mass – and inertia – but mathematically imaginary mass. If a Federation vessel had a mass simultaneously inside and outside of the Warp, it could not even exist without collapsing the universe.”
You have zero level of understanding of warp drive and theory. Ship is not moving throught space – it remains stationary, while “bubble” of space around it moves through space – warp speed is only relative to objects outside of that bubble. So ship itself doesn’t move faster than light – but rather that part of space in which ship is. That is why you don’t have time dilation effect with warp.
Picard, the shields of the Enterprise will not hold against 7800 missiles. It could probably hold against a few hundred, that is without taking the impact of a MAC round. Do you have any idea how big 50mm is? That is a small, automatic cannon. 50mm High Explosive rounds. Go get a ruler and measure it.
“which would obliterate any UNSC ship or station.”
Proof? The Federation measures the yield in isotons. The mark 6 torpedo, which was used during the time of Voyager and TNG had a yield of 200 isotons. However, there is no conversion from isotons to anything used today.
Contact Harvest: “A single Archer missile can disable all but the most heavily-armored UNSC ships.”
We DO know that 1 Archer missile will destroy the Enterprise. The PoA is bigger than the Enterprise (PoA: 1170x352x414 compared to Enterprise: 642.5x467x137.5), and the PoA is a Halcyon class cruiser, the smallest vessel ever to be given the Cruiser class. So 1 Archer missile will destroy the Enterprise. The Enterprise’s hull is titanium. The UNSC uses Titanium-A Battleplate, molecularly altered to be stronger than regular titanium. 1 Archer missile would be overkill. 1 photon torpedo will be overkill.
However, the Archer missile/50mm autocannon defenses will be stronger than Enterprise’s shield. The PoA has two AI’s. The autocannons and missiles will not miss the torpedoes. The only thing the Enterprise can hit the PoA with is phasers.
The navigational deflector will stop/divert a MAC round, then two more comes flying in. The first drops the shield, the second smashes through the entire saucer section. Then a hundred Archer missiles (1 will destroy the Enterprise) envelops the remainder of the Enterprise.
Pillar of Autumn for the Factpile Award
”
“The Hirogen and Voth also have not been conquered despite bordering Borg territory.”
And wh says they won’t be?
”
decades – centuries of not being conquered…
common sense…
I think there was race which was able to hold Borg back for centuries, but in the end, it was assimilated.
About Spieces 8472, it had immune system capable of defeating Borg nanoprobes and organic technology. Borg could not assimilate them, and what they can’t assimilate, they can’t understand.
“Proof? The Federation measures the yield in isotons. The mark 6 torpedo, which was used during the time of Voyager and TNG had a yield of 200 isotons. However, there is no conversion from isotons to anything used today.”
Few planet bombardment instances (The Die is Cast is best example; there is also one instance in TNG when Enterprise fires torpedo at gas giant; it produces very large impact) support 500 megaton photon torpedoes.
www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/pagarticle.php?24 -you have that screenshot here
” The Enterprise’s hull is titanium.”
TRItanium, not TItanum. There is titanium, duranium and tritanium used in starship constructon; last two remained in use during 24th century, and are much more resillient than titanium. Enterprise-D saucer survived crash on a planet and its outer frame seemed to be in much better condition that Pillar of Autumn after crash-landing. However, it is much thinner than PoA armor.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=35brUCRkgIk -several stupid mistakes dictated by story regarding shield penetration, but saucer landing part is important. (Galaxy class is 642 meters long, with saucer section little over 2/3rds of total length).
“The autocannons and missiles will not miss the torpedoes. The only thing the Enterprise can hit the PoA with is phasers.”
Torpedoes are equipped with shields; each photon torpedo is 500 megatones maximum, and are capable of executing manouvers. Galaxy class carries 250 torpedoes in original configuration, same number or more in uprated configuration, so it is almost certain at least one torpedo will penetrate. Also, phasers are not weak but still pale when compared to torpedoes.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1hmd9sBJc&feature=related
“The navigational deflector will stop/divert a MAC round, then two more comes flying in. The first drops the shield, the second smashes through the entire saucer section. Then a hundred Archer missiles (1 will destroy the Enterprise) envelops the remainder of the Enterprise.”
If it gots chance to fire, then maybe and mybe not. Photon torpedo is 500 megatons maximum and slug seems to be several megatons at most. Shields are seen to stop several torpedo impacts, but I don’t know if maximal yield is used in battle.
“Enterprise-D saucer survived crash on a planet and its outer frame seemed to be in much better condition that Pillar of Autumn after crash-landing. However, it is much thinner than PoA armor.”
Uh…the only reason the POA looks like it took more damage is because it was being blasted by plasma? Hit by fighters, blown to bits and yet still had a around 9% still working. Thats pretty impressive.
“If it gots chance to fire, then maybe and mybe not. Photon torpedo is 500 megatons maximum and slug seems to be several megatons at most. Shields are seen to stop several torpedo impacts, but I don’t know if maximal yield is used in battle.”
500 megatons vs…1.17 Teratons…yeah. As for speed MAC rounds go 0.4c which would prevent the Enterprise from responding to that…this has been said already. Now GTFO.
Also, I forgot to mention that Galaxy class can launch at least 5 torpedoes instantly, like single torpedo.
“There was only one ship.”
—Thel ‘Vadamee
“One? Are you sure?”
—Prophet of Regret
“Yes. They called it the Pillar of Autumn.”
—Thel ‘Vadamee
The Pillar of Autumn survived *SEVEN* Covenant ships. The general rule is the UNSC only wins if they outnumber the Covenant 3-1. PoA was outnumbered 7-1. Destroyed 3 Covenant ships, and survived the other 4. AND the Covenant have weapons the PoA cannot stop, unlike the photon torpedoes. At the Battle of Reach, PoA *DODGED* a Covenant energy projector *3* times. The energy projector fires energetic particles at speeds close to the speed of light. Close to the speed of light. PoA dodged it 3 times. The 2 AI’s will be able to direct the weapons to destroy each photon torpedo before they get close.
“Also, I forgot to mention that Galaxy class can launch at least 5 torpedoes instantly, like single torpedo.”
PoA can launch 7800 Archer missiles at once. And 3 MAC rounds in quick succession.
“Uh…the only reason the POA looks like it took more damage is because it was being blasted by plasma? Hit by fighters, blown to bits and yet still had a around 9% still working. Thats pretty impressive.”
True.
“500 megatons vs…1.17 Teratons…yeah. As for speed MAC rounds go 0.4c which would prevent the Enterprise from responding to that…this has been said already. Now GTFO.”
I won’t. You still forgot that in order to target MAC you need to turn entire ship in that direction. And single photon torpedo is 500 megatons (maybe even 1 gigaton but I usually go with lower figures) which means that 250 photon torpedoes have combined yield of 125 gigatons; if it is 1 gigaton then it is 250 gigatons. Not as much as MAC but I still think it would be more than enough to destroy PoA; maybe even single torpedo would be enough.
However I done calculations, and navigational deflector should be able to deflect it, or even several rounds – single 1kg stone has 38 times (37.9) impact force of PoA slug at warp 9.9; but who says ship won’t “encounter” several such stones at one time? No-one.
hey picard…
dummy…
1,7 terra tons for the MAC…
vs
500 mega tons(max) for the torpedos times 5…. so 2.5 gig
MAC
1,700,000,000,000 tons of TNT equilvalent
vs
5 Photon Torpedos
2,500,000,000
even if the enterprise fired ALL 250 of its torpedoes it wouldnt equal out to 1 MAC round not even close!…
250 x 500 megaton=
125,000,000,000
let me put the numbers line up so you can see…
125000000000 tons(TNT) for ALL of the Enterprises Torpedoes
1700000000000 tons(TNT) 1 MAC round…
your done…
“I won’t. You still forgot that in order to target MAC you need to turn entire ship in that direction. And single photon torpedo is 500 megatons (maybe even 1 gigaton but I usually go with lower figures) which means that 250 photon torpedoes have combined yield of 125 gigatons; if it is 1 gigaton then it is 250 gigatons. Not as much as MAC but I still think it would be more than enough to destroy PoA; maybe even single torpedo would be enough.”
you should… because how often does the enterprise sit infront of its enemy… oh yeah almost ALWAYS…
“However I done calculations, and navigational deflector should be able to deflect it, or even several rounds – single 1kg stone has 38 times (37.9) impact force of PoA slug at warp 9.9; but who says ship won’t “encounter” several such stones at one time? No-one.”
You’re missing the point. The PoA advanced MAC guns and reactors allow it to fire *3* is quick succession. When the MAC rounds come in range of the Navigational Deflector, it will deflect 1, then two more will be right behind it. It might have the chance to begin pushing aside the second, but the other two will hit.
A ship-based MAC round is 600 tons. It is traveling at 119,916,983.2 meters per second (40% speed of light).
Alrighty Picard. On the 500 megaton/1k megaton BS. I have found nothing online that proves or even mentions Photon torpedoes anywhere even close to this. therefore, I very much doubt that they are anywhere even close to that and as such you are making BS up yet again.
“Alrighty Picard. On the 500 megaton/1k megaton BS. I have found nothing online that proves or even mentions Photon torpedoes anywhere even close to this. therefore, I very much doubt that they are anywhere even close to that and as such you are making BS up yet again.”
They have a yield of 200 isotons… which means…? There is no conversion from isotons to [insert anything used today].
“you should… because how often does the enterprise sit infront of its enemy… oh yeah almost ALWAYS…”
Beacouse it does not matter in Star Trek. You’re going to get hit one way or another – and in DS9 and Star Trek movies there are examples of starship combat manouvers.
@Picard
You mean get as close as you can like it’s freakin the American civil war using damn broadsides cannons to shoot in close range see how that works out.
“Beacouse it does not matter in Star Trek. You’re going to get hit one way or another – and in DS9 and Star Trek movies there are examples of starship combat manouvers.”
Combat maneuvers mean shit when the PoA blasts the fuck out of Enterprise at the 50,000 km + range.
1) “You have zero level of understanding of warp drive and theory. Ship is not moving throught space – it remains stationary, while “bubble” of space around it moves through space – warp speed is only relative to objects outside of that bubble. So ship itself doesn’t move faster than light – but rather that part of space in which ship is. That is why you don’t have time dilation effect with warp.”
Now I know you’re just being stupid for the sake of being stupid. No normal human can fuck up their own argument this badly.
Based on even minimum observations, it is clear that objects traveling through the warp will still have negligible mass, inertia and momentum. Even Darkstar was hesitant to suggest warp ramming as a viable tactic because unlike you, he has a rudimentary grasp of Newtonian physics.
2) “I won’t. You still forgot that in order to target MAC you need to turn entire ship in that direction. And single photon torpedo is 500 megatons (maybe even 1 gigaton but I usually go with lower figures) which means that 250 photon torpedoes have combined yield of 125 gigatons; if it is 1 gigaton then it is 250 gigatons. Not as much as MAC but I still think it would be more than enough to destroy PoA; maybe even single torpedo would be enough.”
Ignore me all you want you pathetic shit stain, however I’ve kind of dismissed the arguments for one gigaton and five hundred megaton torpedoes on the other board. Don’t think for one second that just because this is a separate thread that the point that I’ve previously established won’t apply here.
3) “However I done calculations, and navigational deflector should be able to deflect it, or even several rounds – single 1kg stone has 38 times (37.9) impact force of PoA slug at warp 9.9; but who says ship won’t “encounter” several such stones at one time? No-one.”
Except I’ve also proven this to be untrue. A vessel traveling greater than the speed of light, regardless of the propulsion method, will not be generating the same impact inertia and momentum as an object at sublight speed. Which is why in “Genesis” Galaxy-class shields cannot be made strong enough to permit safe passage through a low-density asteroid field, cannot deflect the heat of atmospheric re-entry causing the hull to heat up dramatically even before shields fail, comparatively slow moving solar photosphere gas (plasma) appears to easily penetrate shields, even if the energy content is below the kiloton range, being rammed by a thousand ton fighter at 100m/s is enough to cut a Bird of Prey clean in half like a knife through butter, a few hundred tons of metal moving at less than 500m/s is enough to deplete their shielding to ten percent and what allows a ramming ship – generating less than a 100 kilotons – passes straight through the shields of an advanced Romulan warship and crush the entire forward segment despite having 70% of her shields remaining.
A MAC round moving at 0.4c is going to smash CLEAN through the shields of the Enterprise without being slowed for even a second, and leave nothing but dirt and debris in the resulting destruction of the warp reactor.
@L-W
Your an artist at this…If their was an award for greatest fanboy smasher in the universe i would totally nominate you.
@ Everyone else in this thread
Next time Picard makes a claim in regards to firepower or maneuverability (such as his 500 megatons to gigaton bullshit), I invite you – scratch that – I implore you to copy and paste or just reiterate the arguments used by me on the last four pages of this thread:
www.factpile.com/united-federation-of-planets-vs-the-covenant.htm
I’ve refuted this guy more times than I care to count (in fact, 99% of his entire argument started a week ago is dead in the water as of now), and the only way to deal with trolls, insufferable fools and outright filthy liars such as this guy is to stamp them out over and over again until you smother their stupidity. Like a fire.
So please, drop by, feel free to use what you like, take in the ambiance and for the love of God; put out the fire of this guys stupidity whenever and wherever possible.
@ Picard
I hate being mean to people. I don’t like using cruel words, especially to people I don’t even know. But damn man. L-W is right. Its over. Star Trek is based on shitty physics and science. The only thing that is real in terms of actual science is the Warp Drive. So please just conceit defeat.
Everyone else…
Pillar of Autumn for a well deserved FactPile Award
Yep one MAC salvo and it’s done, PoA for FP Award.
Also Picard neglected to tell us (or didn’t know, which seems more plausible), that the Enterprise D does not move at all while in warp. Since nothing moves faster than the speed of light, warp drive shrinks the fabric of space in front of the ship and expands the back, enabling it trek great distances.
It’s laughable how you didn’t even seem to know that at all Picard, even though you seem to be defending with all your might. Just pitiful.
I nominate the PoA for the factpile award.
+ 1 nomination.
+1 nomination PoA www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLEq4PgL9hE&playnext_from=TL&videos=_r5ZH20o3hQ
“Except I’ve also proven this to be untrue. A vessel traveling greater than the speed of light, regardless of the propulsion method, will not be generating the same impact inertia and momentum as an object at sublight speed. Which is why in “Genesis” Galaxy-class shields cannot be made strong enough to permit safe passage through a low-density asteroid field, cannot deflect the heat of atmospheric re-entry causing the hull to heat up dramatically even before shields fail, comparatively slow moving solar photosphere gas (plasma) appears to easily penetrate shields, even if the energy content is below the kiloton range, being rammed by a thousand ton fighter at 100m/s is enough to cut a Bird of Prey clean in half like a knife through butter, a few hundred tons of metal moving at less than 500m/s is enough to deplete their shielding to ten percent and what allows a ramming ship – generating less than a 100 kilotons – passes straight through the shields of an advanced Romulan warship and crush the entire forward segment despite having 70% of her shields remaining.
A MAC round moving at 0.4c is going to smash CLEAN through the shields of the Enterprise without being slowed for even a second, and leave nothing but dirt and debris in the resulting destruction of the warp reactor.”
Except you totally failed to understand that I was talking about NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR, not deflector SHIELDS. Navigational deflector can stop simple physical objects like asteroids and laser fire; for more advanced weaponry, like phasers and photon torpedoes are used deflector shields.
“Ignore me all you want you pathetic shit stain, however I’ve kind of dismissed the arguments for one gigaton and five hundred megaton torpedoes on the other board. Don’t think for one second that just because this is a separate thread that the point that I’ve previously established won’t apply here. ”
Few megatons will be enough to make PoA just another debris field, so that doesn’t really matter.
“Now I know you’re just being stupid for the sake of being stupid.”
Look who’s talking. You really need psychiatrist. Or new glasses.
“Also Picard neglected to tell us (or didn’t know, which seems more plausible), that the Enterprise D does not move at all while in warp. Since nothing moves faster than the speed of light, warp drive shrinks the fabric of space in front of the ship and expands the back, enabling it trek great distances. ”
I told that.
“Except I’ve also proven this to be untrue. A vessel traveling greater than the speed of light, regardless of the propulsion method, will not be generating the same impact inertia and momentum as an object at sublight speed. ”
It doesn’t matter if rock is moving toward Enterprise at v, or Enterprise towards rock at v, or each towards another at v – as long as their relative speeds stay same. Enterprise might be lightened while at warp, but rock won’t.
1) “Except you totally failed to understand that I was talking about NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR, not deflector SHIELDS. Navigational deflector can stop simple physical objects like asteroids and laser fire; for more advanced weaponry, like phasers and photon torpedoes are used deflector shields.”
Which is even more mind numbingly retarded. You’re postulating that navigational deflector shields should effortlessly deflect the momentum of a several hundred ton projectile traveling at half the speed of light due to the fact that they frequently survive passive impacts with asteroids at thousands of times the speed of light…
(which is utterly pointless anyway, since a momentum, inertia and mass would be utterly negligible concepts during warp travel)
…Yet their combat shields, shields that are primarily designed to withstand active threats that would otherwise be fatal to the crew (radiation, lasers, plasma, nuclear detonations, fusion warheads) and operate from the same system are somehow only capable of 100,000,000,000th of the durability and tolerance of their navigational deflectors?
Nice try moron, but if you were capable of putting forth even a halfway decent argument this would have been the first obvious fault in your continued efforts to lie through your teeth.
2) “Few megatons will be enough to make PoA just another debris field, so that doesn’t really matter.”
Wow, you have this amazing ability to prove a point without dirtying the argument with “facts”, “calculations” or “proof”.
Idiot.
3) “Look who’s talking. You really need psychiatrist. Or new glasses.”
Remedial classes for your continued stupidity. Glasses for your incredibly poor reading comprehension. counseling for your pathological desire to constantly lie. Am I missing something here?
“It doesn’t matter if rock is moving toward Enterprise at v, or Enterprise towards rock at v, or each towards another at v – as long as their relative speeds stay same. Enterprise might be lightened while at warp, but rock won’t.”
Except both relative velocities will still remain at multiples of times c, since one object cannot be exceeding the speed of light (regardless of whether it warps the universe around it or vice versa) and still represent a tangible mass.
For someone who has claimed to understand relative velocities, you sure do know fuck all about the actual laws of RELATIVITY.
L-W are you enjoying this?
He most probably is
“L-W are you enjoying this?”
In a sick way I find his continued squirming sort of funny.
“Which is even more mind numbingly retarded. You’re postulating that navigational deflector shields should effortlessly deflect the momentum of a several hundred ton projectile traveling at half the speed of light due to the fact that they frequently survive passive impacts with asteroids at thousands of times the speed of light…”
600 ton slug traveling at 40% speed of light.
@ L-W
Would the Enterprise D survive…
1. A single MAC round?
2. Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)
3. A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?
3. A Shiva nuclear missile, then a single MAC round plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?
Would the PoA be able to destroy the 5 photon torpedoes before they impact with…
1. 50mm automatic cannons (40) controlled by a Smart AI?
2. Archer missiles launched to intercept, controlled by a Smart AI?
3. Combination of 40 50mm automatic cannons and Archer missiles, all controlled by a Smart AI?
Also, can a phaser reach distances of 50,000 km? If not, then the Enterprise D won’t even scratch the PoA.
“Would the Enterprise D survive…
1. A single MAC round?
2. Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)
3. A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?
3. A Shiva nuclear missile, then a single MAC round plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?”
please i can answer those
“1. A single MAC round?” No
“2. Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)” No
“3. A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?”…Maybe
“3. A Shiva nuclear missile, then a single MAC round plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?” Fuck No
“1. 50mm automatic cannons (40) controlled by a Smart AI?
2. Archer missiles launched to intercept, controlled by a Smart AI?
3. Combination of 40 50mm automatic cannons and Archer missiles, all controlled by a Smart AI?”
1. yes
2.Doubtful
3.Fuck yes
“Also, can a phaser reach distances of 50,000 km? If not, then the Enterprise D won’t even scratch the PoA.”
……….If you fire a bullet into space it continues traveling until it hits something that can stop it……………For lasers (and i assume Phasers) they suffer from Diffraction(?) so I Guess it would depend on how Powerful the Phaser(laser?) in question is (May be wrong)
“please i can answer those”
Well anyone can. But Picard only listens to L-W. And even then, he doesnt sometimes.
“But Picard only listens to L-W. And even then, he doesnt sometimes.”
Methinks u Rit *translation: I think you are Right on this ol chap*
If the UNSC can launch fighters, the enterprise is even more screwed. One power beam crippled her and that was weaker than the MAC cannon. Also, the engines are huge and resulted in her destruction. Big targets for Shiva missles, MAC cannons, and even Archer warheads.
“I told that.”
Yet you insist that if 1 kg stone was going at Warp 9.9 it would be much stronger than a MAC round. Were you saying that the navigational deflector would be able to stop that?
“Am I missing something here?”
Maybe that you have same characteristics. Or that this discussion is not my main preocupation.
Picard, answer these for me…
Would the Enterprise D survive…
1. A single MAC round?
2. 2 MAC rounds?
3. 3 MAC rounds?
4. Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)
5. A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?
6. A Shiva nuclear missile, then 3 MAC rounds plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?
Would the PoA be able to destroy the 5 photon torpedoes before they impact with…
1. 50mm automatic cannons (40) controlled by a Smart AI?
2. Archer missiles launched to intercept, controlled by a Smart AI?
3. Combination of 40 50mm automatic cannons and Archer missiles, all controlled by a Smart AI?
1) A single MAC round?
No.
2) 2 MAC rounds?
Hell no.
3) 3 MAC rounds?
I’m sorry, what Enterprise? There’s just scrap here.
4) Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)
Depends, although in my opinion it will only sap the shields at best.
5) A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?
Not without shields.
6) A Shiva nuclear missile, then 3 MAC rounds plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?
An expanding ball of plasma that would soon dissipate into the void of space, leaving nothing for the Federation to find.
“1) A single MAC round?
No.
2) 2 MAC rounds?
Hell no.
3) 3 MAC rounds?
I’m sorry, what Enterprise? There’s just scrap here.
4) Over a thousand Archer missiles hitting it at once? (PoA holds 7800)
Depends, although in my opinion it will only sap the shields at best.
5) A Shiva nuclear missile with a payload of greater than 30 megatons?
Not without shields.
6) A Shiva nuclear missile, then 3 MAC rounds plus over a thousand missiles hitting it at once (standard)?
An expanding ball of plasma that would soon dissipate into the void of space, leaving nothing for the Federation to find.”
I rest my case. For what should be the final time on this thread… Pillar of Autumn for a very well deserved FactPile Award.
“I rest my case. For what should be the final time on this thread… Pillar of Autumn for a very well deserved FactPile Award.”
You’re tempting fate here…plus 1 nomination.
To trolls 1.bp.blogspot.com/_hf_4qD2x0uc/S-MUz8Zk2iI/AAAAAAAAACQ/w77aMfMzOTk/s1600/texplainthejoke.jpg now plus 1 nom for PoA.