Suggested by AHEM
Well, AHEM certainly knows how to get a lot of his suggestions posted…Anyways, this is a fun match that I will have to stay out of since we all know which side I’m going with. In fact, I’m pretty sure Richard could win the entire match by himself.
The battle takes place with both continents on the same world, with all characters and creatures (minus gods) available at full power to fight.
Which side wins?
@Kytheros
I suspect that barring the ArchAngels themselves, it may actually be cakewalk if it were the Dresden Files universe vs Sword of Truth instead of Alagaesia, considering the D.F Residents could always use stealth and such, and if in the event that fails, they always have satillite dropping to fall back on!
Given that its enough to give the dot hack universe residents save their most powerful members migraines if they don’t fight seriously, this is saying a lot!
Alas, I must wonder if Murtagh should lead a task force to inflitrate the IO and the Alagaesians may have to play it smart, then.
P.S: Did you ever hear of the Mortal Instruments if I had to ask?
The Dresdenverse curbstomps all over Alagaesia and SoT combined.
@Kytheros
Its Wheel of Time where the Full Brunt of the Dresdenverse(I said Full Brunt, because back at the plans with the Admiral its agreed that the Dresden Files factions already selected are to send out their best-known factions rather than all their factions combined while the Alerans are to be lead by Tavi and his allies along with a few hundred Icemen + Marat but no Vord, actually!) will get causes for fits at the very least, right? o.O’
YIKES!!!!!
The best the dot hack universe can do is to fight either of the two off mono-a-mono and wind up even beating either, eventually, but the Dresdenverse beating BOTH at the same time if they went 100% maximum power???
You sure we’re talking the same Dresden Files universe, here?
Yes, I do believe we are. The Dresdenverse may have to apply some effort, but I believe that the Dresdenverse would win rather handily.
@Kytheros
You mean against both Sword of Truth and Alagaesia at the exact same time?
YIKES!!!!!
And if Dresden got the Non-Standard powers in the form of the Darkhollow Ritual applied before either Rahl or Eragon could open the boxes of Orden, wouldn’t that mean that Dresden could wipe both Rahl AND Eragon across the floor at the exact same time, even?*
1.) (For the record, you need all 8 of the Morganna Factors from the dot hack universe to even have a hope in fighting Darkhollow-powered enemies, last time I checked, assuming if Cubia isn’t unleashed 1st in the process!)
Eragon wouldn’t be able to invoke Orden. He’d fall for the Book of Counted Shadows cover and open the wrong one.
As for Richard invoking Orden in a fight against the Dresdenverse … that’s what would cause the Dresdenverse to exert itself.
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Dresden himself isn’t that powerful, relative to the Dresdenverse’s individual heavies. Oh, for a mortal wizard, in terms of raw power he’s up there, but he’s not as efficient as a lot of other wizards. And wizards, as individuals, aren’t that powerful relative to other individual entities in the Dresdenverse. Admittedly, once he learns how to use the powers of the Winter Knight he’ll move up on power list, and if/when he figures out how to employ Demonreach, he’ll be better still. However, he’ll still be restricted by wanting to obey the Laws of Magic unless he has the Blackstaff or acquires some other means of staving off the taint of black magic or has that restriction lifted.
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But yeah … the Dresdenverse really quite dangerous and powerful at the upper ends.
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Dresden’s edge in a fight versus Eragon and/or Richard Rahl is that he’s a crafty fucker in a fight and regularly takes on people at or above his weight class, both with and without proper preparation. Eragon doesn’t have that, seeing as his weight class is damned high up there for Alagaesia, and Rahl, while he has the talent for being damned high up there, is hampered by lacking fine control over his magic at this point in time, even though he has had that fine control in the past.
@Kytheros
What is the Book of Counted Shadows for, exactly?
Interesting, so the Dresden Files has already gotten built-in responses against Orden, right?
So barring above-mentioned Non-standard Powers in the form of the Darkhollow Ritual, Dresden himself is just a very sharp thorn for both Alagaesia + Sword of Truth to deal with, right?
No kidding, Uriel’s only power-level equals would be the Summer or Winter Mothers for either Seelie courts, who mothered the Queens for either who knighted guys like Fix(who needs more fight scenes) or Dresden, respectively, and while Odin himself isn’t of the same overall weight class either(the Admiral did state his Dresden!-verse Avatar’s only Medium!-Fish sized in comparison to the even heavier hitters!) he’d still cause horrifically massive casualties for Sword of Truth + Alagaesia to deal with, right?
Heh…that kind of reminds me of whenever Haseo or Skullhead have to fight to kill things in some respects, given how often the two had to deal with things at or above their sizes(although I suspect Dresden did it more often than at least Haseo did in frequencies since he fought longer, Skullhead is debatable, though!) that the two of them are often confirmed to be ready for anything at any time.
Loathesome as I am to admit it, you don’t often see Potter or Percy + any of his individually paternal 1st cousins in general(not even Jason, Nico might be an exception to the rule, though!) from CHB or Jason’s camp coming properly prepared, do you? T_T
At least its possible that Percy + his above-noted 1st cousins could punch Eragon’s head clean off, although at the individual level as it stands, they can’t really be expected to do jack$hit against Dresden himself on their own, can they?(Xth form Haseo or Skullhead might be another matter entirely, though!)
P.S: Did you recall my question in regards to the Mortal Instruments universe, introduced by Cassandra Clare, yet?
I cannot speak for any of Mike’s activities outside of SoT, as I’ve never taken place in any debates with him that involve other subjects. Maybe he can actually be somewhat reasonable when he isn’t intent on wanking up SoT, I don’t know, but I can’t say either way.
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“Mike’s calculations for Richard’s speed … eh … it is canonical that having the Gift increases one’s speed, strength, endurance, reaction times, etc., and the amount can vary, based on the strength of one’s Gift (that is, the stronger the Gift, the more it boosts you).”
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Whoa, there! It was never shown, stated, or implied in any of the SoT books that having the gift augments one’s physical abilities. Perception of time, yes, but strength, speed, endurence, and reaction time? Not happening. The Dreamwalkers can move in the cracks of time between thoughts, yes, and Nicholas the Slide might have had some strength augmentation, but none of the wizards and sorceresses in SoT benefit from outright superhuman attributes brought about from their gift. If they did, then powerful gifted who aren’t skilled in battle, such as Zedd or Nicci, wouldn’t have to worry about being threatened physically by ordinary soldiers; they could just speedblitz them and break their necks, no lightning or wizard’s fire necessary.
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“The Dresdenverse curbstomps all over Alagaesia and SoT combined.”
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I have to agree with this. From what I know of the Dresden Files, with the gods, dragons, fairy queens, and Archangels that tend to fill the higher ranks, they’d go well beyond the power levels typical of SoT and Alagaesia.
“I have to agree with this. From what I know of the Dresden Files, with the gods, dragons, fairy queens, and Archangels that tend to fill the higher ranks, they’d go well beyond the power levels typical of SoT and Alagaesia.”
and that’s not even considering that WoG says the Lovecraft mythos is real as well
“Whoa, there! It was never shown, stated, or implied in any of the SoT books that having the gift augments one’s physical abilities. Perception of time, yes, but strength, speed, endurence, and reaction time? Not happening. The Dreamwalkers can move in the cracks of time between thoughts, yes, and Nicholas the Slide might have had some strength augmentation, but none of the wizards and sorceresses in SoT benefit from outright superhuman attributes brought about from their gift. If they did, then powerful gifted who aren’t skilled in battle, such as Zedd or Nicci, wouldn’t have to worry about being threatened physically by ordinary soldiers; they could just speedblitz them and break their necks, no lightning or wizard’s fire necessary.”
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Er … I may have misphrased that. It is canonical that someone with Gift can draw upon it to boost their physical abilities, to an extent. That is, the Gifted have physical abilities above that of an otherwise identical, but non-Gifted person, or person without access to their Gift. Not trying to say that being Gifted automatically makes one superhuman, just it gives you an advantage over a non-Gifted, but otherwise identical, copy of you – and presumably the stronger the Gift you have, the more you can draw upon it to boost yourself, up to its limits, and the physical boosting limits are (hopefully/presumably) much more limited than the perception boosting capabilities.
It was specifically stated by Nicci – while her Gift was bound up with Kahlan, with that maternity curse (I think that’s what it was called), while she couldn’t access it without breaking it and releasing Kahlan, that she was weaker, and physical things she could have done while Gifted were made significantly more difficult without it.
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Also … you do have to be pretty damn strong (and damage resistant, and fast) to punch through someone’s stomach and rip their spine out through it without busting up your own hand or sending them flying, which Richard has done. I, personally, prefer to attribute that to unconsciously drawing heavily upon his Gift (and possibly the Sword as well) to boost himself (and protect his damn hand), rather than to say that Richard can do that normally in an antimagic zone. YMMV, though.
@Admiral on #709
Admittedly speaking, I could fathom the idea of the Potter-world or even the dot hack universe struggling to get rid of just either Alagaesia or Sword of Truth on their own(Camp Half-Blood is debatable as of the latest news from the Son of Neptune or the Demigod Diaries, courtesy of the Heroes of Olympus novels by Old-Man Rick Riordan, speaking of which when will you grab a copy of the Lost Hero and a copy of Son of Neptune, by now?), but the idea that the Dresden Files can deal away with both Alagaesia AND Sword of Truth at the exact same time?
o.O’
Badassitude to the MAX, much, or are we talking Super Robot Wars in here?
@AHEM
So in other words, if even Potter or Percy + any of his paternal 1st cousins have a shot to actually get rid of Rahl in a life-or-death matter, and the former can’t expect to do Jack$hit against Dresden while the latter can’t get Dresden either on their own individually…what does this mean, exactly?
@Kytheros
I’ll chalk it up to being somewhat akin to Potter-world Subconscious Magic or whenever an Epitaph user from the dot hack universe has to unleash a Morganna Factor of theirs or whenever an AIDA-infused player unleashed said Infusement.
“It was specifically stated by Nicci – while her Gift was bound up with Kahlan, with that maternity curse (I think that’s what it was called), while she couldn’t access it without breaking it and releasing Kahlan, that she was weaker, and physical things she could have done while Gifted were made significantly more difficult without it.”
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Hmm, I suppose a slight, slight boasting or perhaps being able to use your gift to temporarily increase your physical attributes would be plausible, but I’m not so sure about this quote. If you could show the chapter and/or page number and the actual statement, then I would probably accept it, but from that vague description, Nicci could easily have been talking about doing things with her gift alone. After all, Nicci isn’t exactly a bodybuilder, and there are a lot of things she would have trouble with when she has to rely on just her physical body instead of being able to, for example, blast an object out of the way or levitate it up in the air with her gift.
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It was called a maternity spell, by the way, not a maternity curse, though I suppose thinking of it as a curse isn’t really that far off.
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“Also … you do have to be pretty damn strong (and damage resistant, and fast) to punch through someone’s stomach and rip their spine out through it without busting up your own hand or sending them flying, which Richard has done. I, personally, prefer to attribute that to unconsciously drawing heavily upon his Gift (and possibly the Sword as well) to boost himself (and protect his damn hand), rather than to say that Richard can do that normally in an antimagic zone.”
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That’s an incident that I pondered quite a bit as well. The thing is, though, that it was never explained how he did it. No mention of drawing upon his gift or the Sword of Truth, no explanation of Richard getting superhuman attributes from somewhere, no disease or wound that would have rendered Drefan’s stomach unusually soft that day, nothing. It seemed like the author just thought that a very strong but ordinary human man could punch his way in and out of another man’s body with no trouble at all. I guess Richard somehow enhancing his abilities for a brief moment is as good an explanation as any, especially as the Sword of Truth seems to increase the speed and power of the user’s strikes to some extent.
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“but the idea that the Dresden Files can deal away with both Alagaesia AND Sword of Truth at the exact same time?”
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It’s mainly due to the twin factors of A) The Dresden Files tends to have more involved gods and similar higher beings, which SoT doesn’t have except for a very distant and uninvolved Creator and the currently-sealed-away-but-trying-to-escape Keeper of the Underworld, and B) a much higher level of technology. (By several centuries at least, given that the Dresden Files is more or less modern and both SoT and A. are around a medieval tech level.) The only real hope that SoT would have is if Orden and the Keeper somehow turn out to be stronger than the various deities and heavy hitters in the Dresden Files.
@AHEM
More Yikes!
This sounds like a matter to let wait until Harry Dresden vs Richard Rahl gets on factpile itself, right?
Meantime back to the kombat at hand, what else does the Alagaesians have to offer in order to have plans to fight it out with the Sword of Truth onslaught?
I’ll look for the Nicci quote, but it might take a bit.
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Dresden (normally) has a gun. At any rate, I’d say wait for new Dresden matches until Cold Days is released, which will be late November.
@Kytheros
Not sure if we’ll be allowed that time, given how this monday at August 20, a garbage-fest in the form of a bad match aimed pretty much at Link from the Legend of Zelda might wind up happening to begin with!
I had enough with Poor-tasting matches in general, truth be told!
Besides, its not like Dresden vs Rahl can be any more hazardous than Rahl vs Lucifer Morningstar(although someone on the Rahl side might have made it called for!) in relative comparison, can it?
Hopefully the Nicci quote could help matters with Sword of Truth vs Alagaesia at least, right?
“Meantime back to the kombat at hand, what else does the Alagaesians have to offer in order to have plans to fight it out with the Sword of Truth onslaught?”
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I think that their best strategy would really be to find a way to neutralize Emperor Jagang. He’s the lynchpin of the Imperial Order, and with him taken out of the picture, the organization would be severely weakened. Being driven by an idealogy and not just a central leader, the IO would undoubtedly keep fighting if he was killed, maybe even make him a martyr, but his Dreamwalker powers would be gone. Only a minority of the gifted who serve the IO actually believe in its causes (those would be the wizards within the Fellowship of Order), while the majority are Sisters of the Light and Dark, along with young wizards that they’ve trained, who were all formed to serve the IO by Jagang’s powers. With Jagang gone, the IO would no longer be able to force them into service.
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Now, if we’re assuming that underworld monsters like Screelings are fighting for SoT, then the newly freed wizards and sorceresses would, but I find it unlikely that they would still help the Order. After being freed, they would likely have more than a little anger at the organization that enslaved, tortured, and (in the case of the women) raped them while forcing them to fight for their army. They’d likely fight their way free, killing many IO troops, the Sisters of the Light and wizards probably joining the New World forces, and the Sisters of the Dark becoming more of a lone organization working with the Mriswith and creatures of the underworld against Alagaësia on their own. That would leave the Imperial Order, the vast majority of the SoT forces, heavily undefended with no bond, no Dreamwalker, and very few gifted in proportion to their massive numbers, and turn their battles against the Alagaësians into slaughters.
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If Jagang is taken out, I predict massive consequences for SoT and a lot of progress made for Alagaësia in terms of evening the numbers and winning major victories.
@AHEM
So the Alagaesians would have to find a way to take out Jagang, before they even THINK about going after the Rahl line, did I hear about that one, right?
“So the Alagaesians would have to find a way to take out Jagang, before they even THINK about going after the Rahl line, did I hear about that one, right?”
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Oh, no, they can tackle the Rahl line and the Emperor in whatever order they want. The Rahl line is what protects the New Worlders from having their minds invaded, and the Dreamwalker is the glue that holds the Imperial Order’s gifted together. Taking out either of them would be an important victory and leave a great many troops vulnerable.
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To get rid of the Rahl bond, however, they’d have to make sure that no gifted member of the Rahl blood survives, or they’ll just make THAT person the Lord Rahl and the bond will be up and running again. Of course, the only three who fit that criteria and appear in the series are Darken Rahl, Richard Rahl, and Nathan Rahl, and each of them has been Lord Rahl at one point or another. If they’re all alive and working together, all three would need to be taken out in order to deprive the New World of their protection.
@AHEM
Let me get this thing straight:
Attempting to get either the Rahl Line or Emperor Jagang ‘The Just’(Described with as much attempted sarcasm as I would with Potter’s ‘dear beloved’ cousin in Tommy Riddle, and then some!) would actually be easier said than done for the Alagaesians, while in kind the Sword of Truth side have to go on Search-and-Destroy engagements against the Alagaesian leaders 1-by-1 and piece by piece, right?
Well that simplifies our problems quite a bit, wouldn’t you think?
@AHEM
So if I also wish to ask: where do you stand on the idea of the Inheritance universe vs the twilight universe in a universal war to the death, actually?
Personally, just because I’m under both the belief and the certainty that Percy or his dad’s side’s 1st cousin Jason could just punch Eragon’s head clean off while their cousin Nico could always incinerate Eragon from afar, does not mean I actually have to believe or recognize the idea that Edward of twilight could punch Eragon’s head clean off, in kind, really.
I’ve found the Nicci quote.
Faith of the Fallen, chapter 45. The e-copy that I found it in is a funkily formatted, where it’s on page 559 of 895.
It takes place in Altur’Rang, shortly before Richard gets a job.
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“Ishaq hoisted a long bar of steel and put his shoulder under it. Richard lifted two and extended his
arm forward to steady it, resting the heavy steel on the bunched muscles of his shoulder.
“Come on,” he said to Nicci. “Let’s get you inside where you can start to dry out and get warm.”
She tried to lift a steel bar to help, but it was beyond her strength. There were times when Nicci
missed her power. She could at least feel it through the link to the Mother Confessor. It took more effort,
but even at this great of a distance she was still able to maintain the link. She walked beside Richard as
they followed the man to the dry room Richard had just won for her.”
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Sadly, it’s not as explicit as I thought it was, but it does seem to imply that Nicci believed that if she could use her Gift, she could help carry the bars, at least, one of them at a time.
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In addition, there are other instances where strength-boosting occurred (or, at least, strength-boosting is the only plausible explanation). Admittedly, they’re mostly with Richard … so I suppose that strength-boosting is more a function of the Sword of Truth’s magic – though several of them occurred while Richard was without the Sword.
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Faith of the Fallen also indicates that the internal unrest in the Imperial Order is inspired by tales/rumors about Richard Rahl … and it seems likely that anyone who ditched the Order would sign up with D’Hara/Richard’s subfaction.
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Faith of the Fallen also tells us that during one campaign season the Imperial Order’s primary invasion force lost over 750,000 men (I think those were just combat losses, not including disease and other factors, but I’m not sure) and grew in size – the first column of reinforcements numbered 250,000 men. The next campaign season, the Imperial Order lost hundreds of thousands of men in combat, half a million or so more from a summer fever – not counting losses from disease and cold (and D’Haran raids) the preceding winter, and still grew in number.
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I dunno ’bout you guys, but when a more or less medieval tech army grows substantially despite loosing the better part of a million men in a single season, and probably close to a million, if not more, per year – and keep them supplied, with redundant complete supply lines … that’s a scary huge resource base supporting those guys, especially when you account for the fact that the Imperial Order is even less efficient, relatively speaking, than the Soviets at their worst. Dear god, that’s what they kinda are … medieval fantasy communists.
Even if SoT has a lower ratio of Gifted to non-Gifted than Alagaesia does, and I’m not sure that’s true (at least for the non-elves) … SoT’s absolute numbers will almost certainly be equal or superior, even if proportionately smaller.
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Quote on the relative size of the New World and Old World. Haven’t found a quote describing the table in any detail, yet, though. Also from Faith of the Fallen, chapter 17. Also in chapter 17 is a fair description of how the Gifted are applied in SoT warfare, but I don’t have time to pick out all the details right now.
“Warren picked up a small rock, not quite the size of his fist, and held it in his palm as he spoke. “I
mean no disrespect, General, and I do not mean to dissuade you from our just cause, but the subject of
the Order has been a pastime of mine. I’ve studied them for years. I’m also from the Old World.”
“Fair enough. So what is it you have to tell us?”
“Well, say that the tabletop is the Old World-the area from which Jagang draws his troops. Now,
there are places, to be sure, where there are few people spread over vast areas. But there are many
places with great populations, too.”
“It’s much the same in the New World,” the general said. “D’Hara has populous places, and
desolate areas.”
Warren shook his head. He passed his hand over the tabletop. “Say this is the Old World-the
whole of this table.” He held up the rock to show the general and then placed it on the edge of the
tabletop. “This is the New World. This is its size-this rock–compared to the Old World.”
“But, but, that doesn’t include D’Hara,” General Reibisch sputtered. “Surely . . . with D’Hara-”
“D’Hara is included in the rock.”"
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I think we estimated that Alagaesia was loosely equivalent in size to the New World, maybe a bit smaller. Actually … probably quite a bit smaller, now that I think about it, since a single nation in the Midlands (Kelta, or Kelton, however it’s spelled) sent 170,000 men in addition to some thousands already deployed, admittedly, that was the majority of that nation’s forces, but still, that was just one nation of the Midlands, one of the larger ones, but still, there’d be what at least two or three other nations with military parity, and D’Hara’s nominally supposed to be able to outmatch all of the Midlands combined (though that could partially be a function of superior troop quality, and relatively large numbers of dedicated special forces units, in addition to the line units).
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As for Edward of Twilight vs Eragon vs Percy/Jason/Nico … Eddie Drood can take them all at the same time (admittedly, he’d probably reserve something particularly nasty for the twinklepire just on principal).
I’ve found two different scales for Alagaësia, both backed. One, on the wiki, says it’s the UKx2. This:
www.inheritanceforums.com/index.php?showtopic=72403
says it’s Asiax2. As you can see, there’s some difference. Then again, that same topic has someone saying Paolini said it’s the USAx2, then someone else says it’s USA/2. So, who knows?
“Attempting to get either the Rahl Line or Emperor Jagang ‘The Just’(Described with as much attempted sarcasm as I would with Potter’s ‘dear beloved’ cousin in Tommy Riddle, and then some!) would actually be easier said than done for the Alagaesians, while in kind the Sword of Truth side have to go on Search-and-Destroy engagements against the Alagaesian leaders 1-by-1 and piece by piece, right?”
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“The Just” is Jagang’s actual title within the Imperial Order, taken at Nicci’s suggestion in order to make him sound more like a good guy and perhaps win more over to his cause. Of course, Jagang the Just makes about as much sense as Voldemort the Kind and Palpatine the Merciful.
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Going after the leaders of SoT would be easier said then done, but the thing is, if Alagaësia actually succeeded, it would leave the vast majority of SoT soldiers rather undefended from hostile magic and mental attack, which would make things substantially easier for the Alagaësians. On the other hand, the death of Alagaësian leaders might slow their factions down, it wouldn’t instantly cripple them so much, because Alagaësia doesn’t rely on things like mystical bonds centered around one person to protect them. To leave Alagaësia comparatively undefended, SoT would have to kill every single one of their magicians.
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“So if I also wish to ask: where do you stand on the idea of the Inheritance universe vs the twilight universe in a universal war to the death, actually?”
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I’d probably favor the Inheritance Universe. I’d put Twilight vampires and shapeshifters above the physical capabilities of Alagaësia characters and creatures, but the commonly used magic and mental powers in Inheritance would provide them with a lot more versatility, such as immobilizing a Twivamp and burning them to death.
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“Sadly, it’s not as explicit as I thought it was, but it does seem to imply that Nicci believed that if she could use her Gift, she could help carry the bars, at least, one of them at a time.”
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Yeah, that’s pretty much what I thought the quote would be like. I still think she was most likely thinking about lifting the bar with magic alone, as it only mentioned that A) Her physical strength wasn’t enough, and B) She misses having magic.
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“I dunno ’bout you guys, but when a more or less medieval tech army grows substantially despite loosing the better part of a million men in a single season, and probably close to a million, if not more, per year – and keep them supplied, with redundant complete supply lines … that’s a scary huge resource base supporting those guys, especially when you account for the fact that the Imperial Order is even less efficient, relatively speaking, than the Soviets at their worst. Dear god, that’s what they kinda are … medieval fantasy communists.”
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Hmm, true. Well I’d still support that the IO is never more than a few million strong at any one time, I have to admit that with their vast land and population combined with their ability to replace their lost numbers, Alagaësia is likely going to have to face a great deal more than that.
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“Even if SoT has a lower ratio of Gifted to non-Gifted than Alagaesia does, and I’m not sure that’s true (at least for the non-elves) … SoT’s absolute numbers will almost certainly be equal or superior, even if proportionately smaller.”
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I agree. I’ve always gone into this match assuming that there are going to be more magic-users on SoT’s side, just as there are more soldiers.
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“I’ve found two different scales for Alagaësia, both backed.”
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I’d lean towards the “somewhat smaller than the USA” interpretation, as that’s the one that Paolini actually said in an interview that was linked, there.
@Kytheros
Thanks for grabbing the intended quotes for Nicci.
What series is Eddie Drodd from, if I may ask?
Admittedly I could imagine Eddie Drodd getting Edward, Eragon and any of the individual children of the 3 sons of Kronos, but is he at Dresden’s level or above to actually fight it out with all the remaining children of the 3 sons of Kronos at the same time, in fact?
@AHEM
I figured as much, hence the sarcasm bit in calling Jagang ‘The Just’, in fact.
And Sideous gets sniped by Tommy Riddle here, yet the other Sith Lords could eventually kill Tommy Riddle….there’s something I find wrong with the picture based on what you noted. o.O’ T_T’
So…kind of like those Witch Hunts, 90% of which(pun intended or not, you decide whether or not it’ll rot!), turned out to be entirely uncalled for in particular, right?
Would you be one to suggest the vs fight between Alagaesia and the twilight universe, some time after Alagaesia vs the Wheel of Time Aiel clans arrive to the site?
Really? Which post is it linked? I know someone else gave an interview, and didn’t link.
“Yeah, that’s pretty much what I thought the quote would be like. I still think she was most likely thinking about lifting the bar with magic alone, as it only mentioned that A) Her physical strength wasn’t enough, and B) She misses having magic.”
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On the one hand, that’s true, on the other hand, the context is that she was trying to make Richard understand what it was like to live as a ‘normal person’ and how the Order bettered the lot of its citizens. And she had explicitly forbidden him the use of magic. As such regretting her inability to use magic probably isn’t because she would use her Gift alone to lift it if she had it.
Eh … I suppose it’s something that could be argued either way, though I have to admit, I wouldn’t have thought about her using her Gift to telekinetically lift a bar if you hadn’t brought it up.
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“Going after the leaders of SoT would be easier said then done, but the thing is, if Alagaësia actually succeeded, it would leave the vast majority of SoT soldiers rather undefended from hostile magic and mental attack, which would make things substantially easier for the Alagaësians. On the other hand, the death of Alagaësian leaders might slow their factions down, it wouldn’t instantly cripple them so much, because Alagaësia doesn’t rely on things like mystical bonds centered around one person to protect them. To leave Alagaësia comparatively undefended, SoT would have to kill every single one of their magicians”
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On the one hand, that’s true as far as the Rahl Bond and Dreamwalker powers go … on the other .. there are a lot of Gifted trained for battlefield use. Whacking the leadership only stops the Rahl Bond and Dreamwalker powers, which would open up the D’Harans and other followers of the Rahls to mental magic … but Alagaesia doesn’t have strategic scale mental magics like a Dreamwalker – their mental magic is more on a tactical scale, and usually reserved for mage versus mage combats.
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“I’d lean towards the “somewhat smaller than the USA” interpretation, as that’s the one that Paolini actually said in an interview that was linked, there.”
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I’m also in favor of that view, since that would be more consistent with the travel times. Okay, let me rephrase that … the explored/known Alagaesia is much smaller, while the largely unexplored/unknown areas are of indeterminate size.
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@Commander Cross – Edwin “Eddie” Drood (two ‘O’s, and only a single ‘D’ at the end), aka Shaman Bond is from Simon R. Green’s Secret History series.
You could toss Dresden into that match and Eddie would still win (it might take him longer, but he’d still win). Droods are cheating assholes like that. At least, Eddie wins if he gets armored up before being neutralized (since he can armor up instantly, I’d say he’s going to be armored up). While armored up, he (or any armored Drood) is more or less immune to everything except for a few very specific things that are either just that scary powerful or designed to counter the armor.
“And Sideous gets sniped by Tommy Riddle here, yet the other Sith Lords could eventually kill Tommy Riddle….there’s something I find wrong with the picture based on what you noted. o.O’”
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Uh…what? I only mentioned Sideous/Palpatine to give an idea of how nonindicative Jagang’s title was.
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“Really? Which post is it linked? I know someone else gave an interview, and didn’t link.”
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Page 3, post #31 of the forum conversation you posted. That link led here:
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shurtugal.com/2010/08/27/comic-con-interview-with-christopher-paolini-part-2/
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“Would you be one to suggest the vs fight between Alagaesia and the twilight universe, some time after Alagaesia vs the Wheel of Time Aiel clans arrive to the site?”
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Well, I suppose, but I might forget, especially if it has to be suggested in a specific timeframe before/after other fights. I don’t keep up with this site as sharply as I used to.
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“on the other hand, the context is that she was trying to make Richard understand what it was like to live as a ‘normal person’ and how the Order bettered the lot of its citizens. And she had explicitly forbidden him the use of magic. As such regretting her inability to use magic probably isn’t because she would use her Gift alone to lift it if she had it.”
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She forbade him to use magic, but not necessarily herself. She would probably have still being using magic for some thing or another if it weren’t for the maternity spell.
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But yeah, I agree that it’s something that could be argued either way. It’s getting into the more obscure reasons for why a character does this and what they would have done in a slightly different circumstance, so I guess nothing definite can be concluded from it.
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“On the one hand, that’s true as far as the Rahl Bond and Dreamwalker powers go … on the other .. there are a lot of Gifted trained for battlefield use. Whacking the leadership only stops the Rahl Bond and Dreamwalker powers, which would open up the D’Harans and other followers of the Rahls to mental magic … but Alagaesia doesn’t have strategic scale mental magics like a Dreamwalker – their mental magic is more on a tactical scale, and usually reserved for mage versus mage combats.”
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True, but I’d still contend that knocking out the Dreamwalker would make a great many of the Order’s gifted a lot less willing to work with them, as they would no longer be controlled. The Sisters of the Light and the wizards they trained would surely defect to the New World, and the Sisters of the Dark would be working by themselves and perhaps with other underworld forces.
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As for the mental magics of Alagaësia being limited to the tactical scale, I’d like to point out that at the end of the first book, Oromis reached out and touched Eragon’s mind, freeing him from Durza’s influence, while Oromis was in Ellesméra and Eragon was in Farthen Dûr. That is a long, considerable range, nearly the entire height of Alagaësia from north to south.
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Also, mental magic in Alagaësia can be used to spy, read and alter memories, take control of someone and force them to sabotage their own side, etc. It’s mainly limited because important leaders in Alagaësia are always taught to protect their minds, and the armies are protected by the wards of magicians. Without the Rahl bond or a Dreamwalker to attack enemy magicians/mindbreakers, SoT would be left very vulnerable to a whole range of nasty stuff.
“And Sideous gets sniped by Tommy Riddle here, yet the other Sith Lords could eventually kill Tommy Riddle”
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HAHAHA no, Sidious breaks Voldemort with ridiculous ease (and probably solos the HP-verse too). Most of the other Sith Lords would solo the HP-verse with ease
@StealthRanger
“HAHAHA no, Sidious breaks Voldemort with ridiculous ease (and probably solos the HP-verse too). Most of the other Sith Lords would solo the HP-verse with ease”
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Oh I don’t know, if it was movie Sidious, then I don’t see him having much of a chance against ether movie or book Voldemort.
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EU Sidious on the other hand…
They’re the same guy, hence EU+Film continuity. Sidious probably solos the HP-verse either way. Since he’s far faster and has vastly superior destructive capacity and telekinesis
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Luke solos HP-verse too :maybe
@Kytheros
Thanks for clearing things up on Eddie Drodd, Drodd sounds like a fun guy in a twisted kind of way to learn about.
Does he carry guns?
I am not known to be Mr. Nice guy these days, truth be told, otherwise I wouldn’t be so frank about Sideous’s head being turned into Kid Buu’s kickball/soccer ball, actually.
@AHEM
So the plans for Alagaesia to get rid of the above-noted major Sword of Truth leaders is going to be very difficult for Alagaesia to pull off, while the reverse for Sword of Truth to get rid of the Alagaesian leaders + the mages that know about the Eldunari would be at least equally as difficult, did I hear it right?
Eddie Drood has an effectively infinite ammo gun that can be switched (at will) to fire a variety of specialize ammunition (including, but not limited to, silver, blessed, and cursed bullets).
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Alagaesian attempts to assassinate SoT leaders are likely to fail. Getting to a Rahl (much less all of them) requires getting past their Mord’Sith bodyguards … and then actually managing to kill them (and it’s good odds that you’re trying to do that inside the People’s Palace, where non-Rahl magic gets the shaft). Killing Jagang means getting to him through the horde of Imperial Order that’ll be around wherever he is, past any bodyguarding Sisters or members of the Brotherhood that are around (they’re mostly wizards too) … and then actually killing Jagang, who can use anyone’s eyes to see through, though it is easier for him to link to a Gifted.
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On the mental magic front – where was it said that Oromis helped Eragon with Durza? I don’t remember that at all, though I remember Arya and Saphira dropping in with a major distraction.
I remember that the Eldunari were prized (beyond their power reserve capability) because they allowed an unlimited range link to the dragon. In addition, most long-range feats (as far as I know) are linked to either known persons or known locations.
The Dreamwalker can link with someone he doesn’t know, somewhere he hasn’t been, at long range and puppeteer them at will. Alagaesian casters can’t protect everyone around the clock, especially not in rear areas, not even in their own armies’ train of camp followers – who will get specifically targeted – both in and out of battle, especially medical personnel.
@SR
Considering the abomination coming on tomorrow, my translation from you: ‘Lalalallaalalalalalalal, not listening’
Come back to me when E.U Post-Endor Luke can solo Original!-Tenchi Masaki and his harem, and then manage to pull it off instead of getting turned into a personal Ragdoll to Tenchi in the process, and then we might be going somewhere constructive with the other 90% of you, m’kay?
Sideous is just undistilled garbage, sorry there’s no kind way for me to word it, when someone else means to tell me Sideous can take the souls of his opponents like he’s Pre-Schrodinger Alucard or Post-Deathbringer Skullhead, I’ll listen for at least a good 5 minutes and maybe retract 100% of the statement of Sideous getting soul-sniped, until that time, I could name 10 Sith Lords that can kill Tommy Riddle, but the day Sideous turned out to be one of them on the top 10 is frankly the day we all go to hell.
)
Darth Nihilus is obvious, the Sith Emperor takes 2nd place, Revan takes 3rd, Malak takes 4th, Darth Traya takes 5th, Darth Badon takes 6th, Exar Kun takes 7th, Naga Sadow takes 8th, Marka Ragnos takes 9th, and Darth Bane himself takes 10th place, not even particularly of Power-Levels either necessarily(except for Nihilus, who’s too obvious to ignore!), and most of the list actually has the potential to fight it out with Post-Deathbringer Skullhead to boot.(At least I admitted that I can see Tommy Riddle losing to Post-Deathbringer Skullhead to begin with, and I’m not so much noting in negativity so much as I’m noting with glee!
When someone means to tell me Sideous can actually kill someone approximately 3 billion times over, or would pull off killing Pre-Schrodinger Alucard(whichever of the two comes 1st), and then pull it off, then its their job to get back to me when it happens, m’kay?
@Kytheros
Aww…I guess there isn’t all that much point in the fact that either Dante or Haseo have unlimited ammo to boot, when Drood has them done at least 10x better, is there?
Can someone admittedly please be my guest and show an identical scene where the One-winged Psycho Angel has DMC’s Vergil beat in terms of having a blade with a longer reach, where the latter notes and lampshades how much more difficult his job has gotten, except to switch Sephy’s place with Eddie Drodd’s and Vergil’s with Haseo’s?
I would at least give positive kudos where they’re due, if they did that..
So let me get this straight, it could go either way between the two sides to actually get rid of the segments of the opposing side they have to take high priority to neutralize either via capturing, enthralling or killing outright, right?
@AHEM
I apologize for the crudeness of the outburst at #733, to be frank I’ve seen better days than this while you were still MIA, its a safe bet to wager most of those days were in September + October of last year, back when its appreciated that you are meant to have the guts to back up your hard-fought keep rather than November 2011-April 2012, where apparently its illegal and against the rules to still live in your earned keep! =_=’
Truth be told, the only good match from last November I could note is the Cartoon Network Civil War, and December 2011′s Universe fight in Super Robot Wars vs Warhammer 40K was way too rushed for my tastes to even compete with the Cartoon Network Civil War, let alone get to the top 10, for that matter!
Most people just started giving Sword of Truth matches another go, after the admittedly much-needed lockdown that was in place before Rahl vs Voldemort came to be and you returned, in fact.
Needless to say, I couldn’t even regather my bearings to get Murtagh a match via now, during that time either.
Speaking of Murtagh, how difficult a time do you think Sword of Truth will have in just finding Murtagh + Thorn by itself as a task, before they can think of determining how to best neutralize him if they can manage it?
Yes and no … Alagaesia magic users have death words … but in Faith of the Fallen, there are 3 casters present, along with other witnesses, when one (or more) of the casters kills a man for treason, and does so instantly, silently, without any gestures or expressions to indicate which one of them was responsible.
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Oh man … I just realized something. SoT’s cave-painting magics could completely screw over the Alagaesians. It could arguably be used to strip their ability to use magic from them, or segments of their magic … or just kill them.
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At any rate, SoT plays serious hardball when it comes to warfare. They’ll launch raids, not against your troops, but against your camp followers and support train, slaughter all of them that they can find, if they find a field hospital on their raid they’ll specifically target the surgeons and other medical personnel there.
They’ll send plagues, biowarfare, gas attacks, blow shit up – on at least one occasion, they’ve used the Gift to powder up glass and deploy it on the battlefield’s air (with favorable winds, admittedly), not many direct casualties from that, but a lot of downright nasty secondary effects.
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As for finding Murtagh and Thorn … the cave-art magics could be used to drive them to specific locations and keep them there, or strip magic from them.
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Oh shit. I just realized something. SoT could deliberately release the Chimes for the purpose of destroying magic and creatures of magic in the world. Drop the war into a strictly mundane grindfest, which would be completely in their favor.
“*snip*”
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So Luke losing to an omnipotent means he can’t stomp the HP-verse single handedly? That makes sense how?
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And as for soul sniping, I didn’t know Voldemort had soul raping powers to begin with. Or that Voldemort could counter telekinesis that can affect capital ships (which involves having his wand TK’ed and snapped in half or being force crushed), or that Voldemort could counter being force stormed or mind raped, possessed or take being hit with building busting energy attacks
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“When someone means to tell me Sideous can actually kill someone approximately 3 billion times over, or would pull off killing Pre-Schrodinger Alucard(whichever of the two comes 1st), and then pull it off”
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Which was why Sephiroth lost to Skuldug… Oh wait, never mind
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Btw, solo means to defeat an entire group/faction/universe single-handedly Einstien
Oh and I hear Haseo vs TFP Dreadwing may be getting posted next month
@Kytheros
(Withholds how Original!-Tenchi Masaki destroys E.U Post-Endor Luke in Badassitude only to get mutilated via Winter Knight!-Dresden who gets blasted by E.U Post-Endor Luke in terms of Badassitude, for now!)
You mean…you just found out about the Cave Paintings Sword of Truth has?
Krap!!!!
How are the Potter-world, dot hack and Dresden Files residents supposed to fight that, exactly?
@Kytheros: Oromis didn’t know Eragon then. And, actually, they can protect them all, as they’ll send proportionate numbers of magic users to guard the armies, especially Elves will be helpful.
Just found out? No. More like just remembered.
Actually, I think I said something along those lines much earlier in the thread … like, back when it was freshly posted earlier.
I gave Madamoiselle Ruliya my word to never strike unless someone means to attack me, my word is always as good as my bond or the mods may as well ban my account in the process!
Do not push me to the point I have to outright go against her requests if you don’t want us all to go to hell for this!
“@Kytheros: Oromis didn’t know Eragon then. And, actually, they can protect them all, as they’ll send proportionate numbers of magic users to guard the armies, especially Elves will be helpful.”
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Again, where was it stated that Oromis helped Eragon with Durza?
No … Alagaesia really cannot protect everyone all day every day. They may be able to protect the vast majority of their combat troops, but until it goes south on them, they won’t see a need to do the same (even if they had the capability) with all the non-combatant camp followers, much less everyone behind the lines, back in Alagaesian territory. The populations of cities, the farmers, etc. – everyone they need to support their army. They don’t have anywhere near the magic users to do so, and even if they do, they’ll be too thinly spread to defend against just that threat to be able to adequate defend against concentrations of other threats.
@Kytheros: Oromis didn’t know Eragon then. And, actually, they can protect them all, as they’ll send proportionate numbers of magic users to guard the armies, especially Elves will be helpful. Also, if they find the Dragonlance, would it be able to pierce the People’s Palace or Wizard’s Keep or anything else’s defenses?
@Kytheros
So in other words, Alagaesia’s stuck on a Deathly Hallows!-esque predicament ad nauseum where they can’t afford to keep everyone all day every day and shouldn’t even attempt to do so to begin with, right?
For all the right and wrong reasons to consider, I like this idea, already.
So either they try to keep their civillian populations as alive as possible via forming underground resistance movements and pray their supplies will hold up, or go in the open to only defend their military forces, and risk losing everything else in the process?
You seem to be assuming that the Alagaësians will just stand there and go “Hur durr, out troops and support is dying, just do nothing.” It’s stated at the end of the first book and when Eragon meets Oromis. What “wild magics” do Alagaësia have, again?
@Epic
We never said they’d do nothing, we are asking whether or not Alagaesia has any counters to what’s just listed that they can sweat out of their emotional hearts to apply it, in time that actually has a 100% rate of successful results, and without fear of the enemy knowing about it until the act’s done so they can at least get taken via surprise!
@anyone: Translation of CC’s post, please? I think it means do they have an effective counter. Is the NoaN the Name of the AL, or of Magic? Can anyone else think of anything? I’ll go look.
@Epic
Long story short: DOES ALAGAESIA HAVE ANY COUNTERS TO CAVE PAINTING MAGIC THAT SWORD OF TRUTH IS OFFERING???
That hard tonic enough?
OK, chill. Magic users can tap into wild magic, what if they tapped into the power holding the crystal of Eoam up?
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Also, Mindbreakers could be used to distract SoT magicians like Jajang and the others can attack him.
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Here’s a list of spells, all or most of them useful:
inheritance.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells
They have Waíse Néiat.
@Epic
Let’s await what AHEM has to say on those ideas before we can find out if its anywhere near a good idea to rely on tapping into the Alagaesian Wild Magics actually, fair enough?
My bad the crude outburst was required, its not even the crudest thing I said in this page alone, but I apologize for it anyway.
Ho, boy…lot’s of material to address for this post.
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“So the plans for Alagaesia to get rid of the above-noted major Sword of Truth leaders is going to be very difficult for Alagaesia to pull off, while the reverse for Sword of Truth to get rid of the Alagaesian leaders + the mages that know about the Eldunari would be at least equally as difficult, did I hear it right?”
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Yes, that’s true. The point I was trying to make, though, is that SoT will be hurt far worse from the loss of their leaders (specifically Jagang and the gifted Rahls) than Alagaësia would, primarily because they rely on those leaders for so much.
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“Alagaesian attempts to assassinate SoT leaders are likely to fail. Getting to a Rahl (much less all of them) requires getting past their Mord’Sith bodyguards … and then actually managing to kill them (and it’s good odds that you’re trying to do that inside the People’s Palace, where non-Rahl magic gets the shaft). Killing Jagang means getting to him through the horde of Imperial Order that’ll be around wherever he is, past any bodyguarding Sisters or members of the Brotherhood that are around (they’re mostly wizards too) … and then actually killing Jagang, who can use anyone’s eyes to see through, though it is easier for him to link to a Gifted.”
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It’s spelled Mord-Sith if you’re talking about the ones from the book. Mord’Sith is the spelling in Legend of the Seeker, not Sword of Truth.
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The Mord-Sith would be deadly inside the People’s Palace, no doubt about that, but outside of it, they would lose some very important magics. “The Omen Machine” confirmed that a Mord-Sith can be overwhelmed if she tries to absorb too much magic at once, even brought to the brink of death or killed. Even inside the People’s Palace, Alagaësians with superhuman speed and strength, such as elves or Ra’zac, could easily defeat a Mord-Sith in close quarter combat, and those would be the people most likely to be chosen for such an assassination mission.
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Also, I’d like to note that all of the Rahls spend a fair amount of time away from the People’s Palace, especially Richard.
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As for Jagang, he’s a lot less dangerous when everyone above a common soldier in Alagaësia knows how to raise barriers against invasion in their mind and many are superhuman. Jagang also has a habit of going into the thick of fighting or interrogating prisoners directly that could put him in danger, a habit that almost got him killed in “The Pillars of Creation.” If all else fails, Galbatorix and Shruikan can just fly right over the heart of the Imperial Order army and unleash a river of fire.
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Sure, killing Jagang might not be a walk in the park, but it won’t be impossible, either.
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“On the mental magic front – where was it said that Oromis helped Eragon with Durza? I don’t remember that at all, though I remember Arya and Saphira dropping in with a major distraction.”
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It happened after Durza was killed, when Eragon was lying unconscious and afflicted by Durza’s memories. Oromis’s mind reached out, touched his, and swept aside the Shade’s influence. This happened in the final chapter of Eragon, “The Mourning Sage.” Oromis confirms that he did this in Eldest (chapter “On the Crags of Tel’naeir, I believe), by saying, “After I initially scried you and Arya, I had no need to resort to such crude methods again. I could reach out and touch your mind with mine.”
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“Alagaesian casters can’t protect everyone around the clock, especially not in rear areas, not even in their own armies’ train of camp followers – who will get specifically targeted – both in and out of battle, especially medical personnel.”
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Alagaësian magicians can cast wards over people to protect them constantly from a variety of attacks. Every time we’ve seen an army, whether it be human, dwarf, elf, or urgal, they always have enough magicians to protect the whole army from being defeated all at once, and if there’s a defiency, they can seed more elves (who have the highest concentration of magicians) throughout the lacking armies. And any person in Alagaësia can be trained to defend their mind by themselves, even if they don’t have magic, if they put the time and effort in.
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“Yes and no … Alagaesia magic users have death words … but in Faith of the Fallen, there are 3 casters present, along with other witnesses, when one (or more) of the casters kills a man for treason, and does so instantly, silently, without any gestures or expressions to indicate which one of them was responsible.”
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Yes, SoT does have equivalents to the death words. However, aside from a few isolated instances where stealth is required, they never use them, never consider how much energy they save, never think about using them to wipe out whole armies. The only incident in the whole series of spells like these being used, besides the time you noticed, is when Nicci stopped the hearts of attacking soldiers specifically to scare the other soldiers. (Because they were seeing their comrades drop dead with no apparent cause.) The rest of the time, even when they’re facing opponents who are undefended, they go with the flashy lightning bolts and fire blasts. And even if they did start using these smaller spells on a large scale, Alagaësia is seasoned at developing wards to stop these kinds of spells, unlike SoT.
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“Also, if they find the Dragonlance, would it be able to pierce the People’s Palace or Wizard’s Keep or anything else’s defenses?”
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The Dauthdaert is exceptionally good at piercing a variety of wards and defenses, and killing dragons. It probably would come in handy for killing better defended SoT characters, but I think it would be put to better use against SoT dragons like Scarlet and Gregory.
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“Oh shit. I just realized something. SoT could deliberately release the Chimes for the purpose of destroying magic and creatures of magic in the world. Drop the war into a strictly mundane grindfest, which would be completely in their favor.”
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There’s no way that SoT would willingly unleash the chimes into the world. The gifted, who are in charge, would never allow it. The Chimes are an insidious demonic force that continued to corrupt and weaken magic long after they left, and were only fully removed by Orden. With Orden taken out of the mix, SoT would be no more eager to unleash the Chimes then they would be to invoke Chainfire and start the end of the world. There’s just too much mutually assured destruction inherent in such a plan.
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“Speaking of Murtagh, how difficult a time do you think Sword of Truth will have in just finding Murtagh + Thorn by itself as a task, before they can think of determining how to best neutralize him if they can manage it?”
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Depends. If Galbatorix sends him to the front lines to lead the troops, finding him will be easier. Of course, if Murtagh had any say in this, he and Thorn would undoubtedly much rather work by themselves, maybe as a strike team like Six and Gregory were in the last SoT book, harassing and harrying rather than standing and fighting.
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“Oh man … I just realized something. SoT’s cave-painting magics could completely screw over the Alagaesians. It could arguably be used to strip their ability to use magic from them, or segments of their magic … or just kill them.”
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The cave-painting magic was brought up much earlier in this debate, in it’s early days. I pretty much gave my reasons then as to why it wouldn’t be such a gamechanging as you seem to think it is. Give me a moment and I’ll go dig them up.
Okay, here’s what I said earlier in this thread:
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“The only person the anti-magic artwork has been applied to was Richard, who at the time was unskilled in the use of his Gift and didn’t really understand it. Experienced magic users have never had this applied to them before. In fact, in the first book, Zedd stated that the Tamarang magic artwork wouldn’t have worked against him or Kahlan. Putting this kind of magic on someone as experienced as Galbatorix, who has been studying magic for the past century and is constantly protected by wards designed to block any magical attack, might not work so well. Sure, he might not have see this specific spell before, but his experience with his own magic alone might thwart it.”
“Assuming they were stripped of their ability to summon and control magic, there’s still the fact of their wards. Galbatorix, Murtagh, and most others can cast wards on themselves that keep working even when they aren’t paying attention to them or upkeeping them, and wards can even be cast over someone who doesn’t have any magic of their own. Assuming they were stripped of being able to use magic, they would likely still be protected by their wards, and thus not quite so easy to blast away.”
“Furthermore, the artwork is only designed to strip innate magic, not outside magical powers like enchanted objects. Considering that Galbatorix and Murtagh both get the majority of their strength from their Eldunari, which have nothing to do with their innate magical powers, they would be unlikely to be rendered helpless magically.”
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I stand by this still, though I would also add to this now that there is the possibility of Alagaësia capturing the cave (probably with a small strike force of superhumans and/or magicians), or finding a way to dissolve the enchantments placed on the person through new applications of magic. It should also be noted that to draw a spell on someone, you have to know their appearance and traits well enough to produce a recognizable image, and if that image is altered too greatly, then the spell can lose its effect or even change targets.
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“OK, chill. Magic users can tap into wild magic, what if they tapped into the power holding the crystal of Eoam up?”
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This is a good, interesting point. However, it should be pointed out that tapping into wild magic would be considered a very old way of doing things and may be forgotten, since it was mainly done in the age before the Grey Folk enchanted the Ancient Language, in a time when even the elves were young, thousands of years before the events of the book at the very least. We also don’t have any yardstick to measure what such magic might be used for, since we never saw it done in the books, only got some vague references to it by Oromis. It would probably be considered both powerful and dangerous, however, given that Oromis said magic without the AL is unwieldy and dangerous at the best of times and there was a mistake related to this kind of ancient magic that nearly destroyed the world.
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“They have Waíse Néiat.”
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This is a very good, interesting point. This spell will likely be the deadliest weapon in the entire Alagaësian arsenal. It’s a suicide move, of course, but when it is used, it can cause great destruction and leave areas uninhabitable for centuries. With this spell, Alagaësia can potentially lay waste to tens or hundreds of thousands of SoT soldiers at the cost of a single one of their magicians, or turn SoT cities into ruins.
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Now, one problem that immediately occurred to me was how Alagaësia is going to find a large number of magicians willing to give their lives in order to use this spell on an effective scale against SoT. However, they don’t need to: They have oaths in the Ancient Language and true names. Galbatorix is highly skilled in both, and once he realizes the sheer size of the enemy he is fighting, it would be very in character for him to get together a corps of magicians who have sworn loyalty to him and/or whom he knows the true names of, and simply order them to give their lives to wreck the armies and cities of SoT. This could be another great way of evening the vast difference in numbers.
@AHEM
So Sword of Truth cannot afford to lose their leaders anymore than Alagaesia can afford to lose their leaders + Mages(in fact they can afford it even less than the Alagaesians would) is what you mean to note at the end of this part, right?
So the Ra’Zac do have a more immediate use to the Alagaesians apart from just staying alive, right?
So Galbatorix + Shurikan or Murtagh + Thorn would be for the Alagaesians striking at the Major SoT leaders when + Where they are most Vulnerable, right?
Why didn’t the Eragon movie Notify on that Oromis had to save Eragon, to be sure?
So what are the odds of the Sword of Truth side being able to be aware that the Alagaesian Death words are kind of like those words used for stealth-based assassinations and such?
What are the known instances in said responses to the Alagaesian Death Words being shown in Sword of Truth?
So the Alagaesian DragonLances must be used for later purposes in the overall war campaigns, right?
You mean they might have successful MAD tactical options on the Sword of Truth side to fall back on?
So either way, Murtagh + Thorn are going to play it smart and follow Galbatorix’s orders on their terms if they can manage it, right?
Please be ready to bring them up, okay your Imperator?
Oops, missed this in my above posts:
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“They’ll send plagues, biowarfare, gas attacks, blow shit up – on at least one occasion, they’ve used the Gift to powder up glass and deploy it on the battlefield’s air (with favorable winds, admittedly), not many direct casualties from that, but a lot of downright nasty secondary effects.”
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Good thing that Alagaësia has wards that can be designed to protect against almost every imaginable type of assault, and are frequently employed on an army-wide scale, eh?
@AHEM on #753
You mean its like Galbatorix to go gather Outright Magi-Suicide Bombers to his side, right?
This might also come at the price of more unfortunate implications, coming right up.
P.S: At least Corbenik’s Rebirth ability only naturally kicks in when Corbenik and/or Ovan themselves are about to die, and wouldn’t be able to naturally happen on its own otherwise unless Corbenik is with the other 7 Phases of Morganna, or rather what’s left of them in the Morganna Factors. (dot hack universe is pretty good at having powerful abilities that’d make that of the Alagaesians in general seem lacking, barring the Wild Magics for sake of possible exceptions, these days!)
Or when the Dresden Files have MAD tactics, their Death Curses(while lacking in scale compared to the Rebirth ability noted above, which is Planetary+ at the minimum!) requires the DF Magic-Users to be near Death’s Door and about to die before they can cast it!
P.P.S to AHEM:
How come Alagaesia + Sword of Truth seem to share no small amount of unfortunate implications going on?
@AHEM on #755
YIKES!!!!
Its like(with the only possible exceptions being Regular Bullets) the Alagaesians have thought of next to everything in their own way and rights, right?*
1.) (Except for the Unfortunate Implications bits, but I digress!)
“So Sword of Truth cannot afford to lose their leaders anymore than Alagaesia can afford to lose their leaders + Mages(in fact they can afford it even less than the Alagaesians would) is what you mean to note at the end of this part, right?”
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Pretty much, yes.
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“So the Ra’Zac do have a more immediate use to the Alagaesians apart from just staying alive, right?”
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Superhuman iron-skinned killing machines that are immune to telepathy, exceptionally difficult to detect with magic, found of using enchanted and acid-coated weapons, and can paralyze a human’s mind with their breath always have uses in circumstances like these.
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“So Galbatorix + Shurikan or Murtagh + Thorn would be for the Alagaesians striking at the Major SoT leaders when + Where they are most Vulnerable, right?”
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I think so. They, and Eragon, are the ones with the mobility of dragons and the physical, mental, and magical prowess to stand up to the best that SoT has to offer.
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“Why didn’t the Eragon movie Notify on that Oromis had to save Eragon, to be sure?”
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Because the movie was not true to the books and all and got more things wrong than it got right.
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“So what are the odds of the Sword of Truth side being able to be aware that the Alagaesian Death words are kind of like those words used for stealth-based assassinations and such? What are the known instances in said responses to the Alagaesian Death Words being shown in Sword of Truth?”
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They’ve never been used for stealth-based assassinations, just circumstances where the gifted didn’t want their magic to be immediately seen. The only two instances are Zedd/Warren/Verna/Adie whoever it was silently kill a convicted traitor (after which Kahlan just said that she didn’t want to know who did it and no one else made any comment) and when Nicci killed some of her enemies (in a battle where she was also regularly tossing fireballs around) and noted that it was more terrifying for their comrades to see them fall dead without any immediately apparent cause than to be rent by violence. These kinds of spells are not widely used in SoT at all.
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As I said before, I believe that SoT would be taken by surprise initially by such a widespread use of these types of spells, but would eventually figure out what they are after some costly battles and find a way to adapt to and defend against them.
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“So the Alagaesian DragonLances must be used for later purposes in the overall war campaigns, right?”
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What do you mean by “later purposes”? What I was suggesting was to save them for killing dragons and maybe also penetrating magical wards, the things that the Dauthdaert were made for.
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“You mean they might have successful MAD tactical options on the Sword of Truth side to fall back on?”
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Yes, but they’re unlikely to use them. Either Chainfire or the Chimes would hurt SoT as much as Alagaësia. The latter fatally corrupts magic all over the world, and the former slowly brings about the end of the world itself after it is invoked.
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“So either way, Murtagh + Thorn are going to play it smart and follow Galbatorix’s orders on their terms if they can manage it, right?”
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Murtagh and Thorn will be looking to play smart regardless of whether or not that’s what Galbatorix orders them. Galbatorix is a very savvy tactician and would probably know best what to do, but he is also more than willing to sacrifice anyone on his side to bring himself victory or greater power, which is not something that M and T would want for themselves. An important thing to consider, however, is whether Murtagh is under Galbatorix’s control as he was from early Book 2 up to late Book 4, or the freed Murtagh of Book 4? I’d be inclined to say the latter.
“How come Alagaesia + Sword of Truth seem to share no small amount of unfortunate implications going on?”
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What implications do you mean?
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“Its like(with the only possible exceptions being Regular Bullets) the Alagaesians have thought of next to everything in their own way and rights, right?”
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That’s one of the things I like about the series. Everyone who has magic gets creative with it, treats it like a science that people have been perfecting for centuries or millennia, and account for a lot of possibilities.
@AHEM
I figured as much!
The Dresden Files or CHB might have ways to detect those, I might wonder if the Potter-world or the dot hack universe have means to detect the Ra’Zac in kind barring applications of Magi-tech, though.
So where does Oromis + his Dragon stand in all this?
So the Eragon movie made the last 30 minutes of The Lightning Thief movie look coherent(where they only showed a tiny fragment of Hades’ realm, which was too close to Tartarus for my tastes and I am not a Purist, blast it!), pretty much?
Yikes!!!!
Was Kahlan pissed for no reason at all?
So after some major battle going on is when a weakness to the DeathWords will be known to the Alagaesians, right?
I meant when the Alagaesians really need it to fight off the SoT Dragons, in fact.
What would be the difference between either takes on Murtagh + Thorn?
We are dealing with terrorists of various types and flavors(which includes but not limit to suicide bombers, and they aren’t purely from the Middle East either but also include some areas in Africa!), these days, the Dresden Files is used to showing people fighting to get rid of the Magi-Terrorists of the Month, its easier to ask what’s qualified as fortunate implications for both sides in here.
While the following is less guiltier of either of the above, don’t get me started on the D.A Templars + The Circle of Mages, just don’t!
The Wards themselves can’t block out Potter-world AK or dot hack Data Drain variations nor can they block out Balefire(from Wheel of Time), though, but considering that the Alagaesian Wards aren’t on par with the Lighthawk wings of the Tenchi Muyo universe’s Original Timeline(which is agreeably a relief of the ‘Thank the Mods’ kind!), well you can’t exactly have everything, right?
“So where does Oromis + his Dragon stand in all this?”
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Glaedr is a very large and old dragon, three times the size of Saphira, who is also exceptionally strong in mental powers but is missing one of his forelegs. Oromis has a sword that contains enough energy “to shift an entire mountain,” and numerous wards, but is weakened by an illness that sometimes sends him into seizures, and as a result of magical torture cannot command magic beyond small, weak spells.
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“So the Eragon movie made the last 30 minutes of The Lightning Thief movie look coherent(where they only showed a tiny fragment of Hades’ realm, which was too close to Tartarus for my tastes and I am not a Purist, blast it!), pretty much?”
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You betcha. If haven’t seen this already, you can see some of the differences by taking a look at this chart: inheritance.wikia.com/wiki/Eragon_(movie)#Differences_between_the_book_and_movie
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“Was Kahlan pissed for no reason at all?”
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After the convicted traitor was killed? Well, she wasn’t really pissed, she just said she didn’t want to know which one of them did it. The convicted traitor was her half-brother, in case you’re wondering. Of course, given that she had just spent a good several minutes ranting and condemning him as a traitor, and threatened to have her half-sister literally gang-raped to death for the same “treason,” I don’t think she had much room to complain about it.
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“So after some major battle going on is when a weakness to the DeathWords will be known to the Alagaesians, right?”
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They’ll search out enemy “magicians” (SoT gifted) and deduce very quickly that the enemy army isn’t protected by constant wards. Then, the death words will come into play, and a great many SoT soldiers will die.
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“I meant when the Alagaesians really need it to fight off the SoT Dragons, in fact.”
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Yes, that would be the best use for it.
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“What would be the difference between either takes on Murtagh + Thorn?”
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A Murtagh still under Galbatorix’s control would have to do whatever Galbatorix ordered him to do, even if that was providing a suicide bombing. A free Murtagh would be more working on his own, possibly skirting between the different factions, and he certainly wouldn’t be giving his life for this war. Dying for someone else just isn’t Murtagh’s thing.
@AHEM
So since we didn’t get to see Oromis at his prime, moot point of maximum usefulness is moot, much?
More Yikes, it sounds like a Cheap movie in terms of management issues, and TLT’s last 30 minutes were rushed, more or less.(among other things, they even had Movie!-Percy be a kombat half-wit when its meant to be ‘wit, not powers’ that’s the primary means of fighting!)
Kahlan threatened to get her half-sister gang-raped to death, or was that her half-brother?
Either way this is just messed-up, and not in a psuedo-tasteful manner, either. T_T
Even more YIKES!!!
I figured as much.
So its a safe bet to wager that Free!-Murtagh + Thorn are more useful to Alagaesia than controlled!-Murtagh + Thorn in the long run of things, right?
It would be the free Murtagh, as he change his Name, so Galby won’t have time to find out in this war.
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Would a different take on this that I’m thinking about posting be good (it’s a “What If” of if these two continents and several others were all in the same world)?
“So since we didn’t get to see Oromis at his prime, moot point of maximum usefulness is moot, much?”
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Unless, of course, Eragon or Galbatorix finds a way to restore his ablity to use magic and heal his illness. They didn’t discover the Name of All Names until after he died, after all.
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From what we’ve heard of Oromis at his prime, he was pretty hardcore. In the final book, Glaedr revealed that when he and Oromis were trapped magically, Oromis dematerialized and reconstructed their bodies outside of the barrier in a split second without harming either of them.
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“Kahlan threatened to get her half-sister gang-raped to death, or was that her half-brother?
Either way this is just messed-up, and not in a psuedo-tasteful manner, either. T_T”
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It was her half-sister, but she said it to her half-brother’s face. The thing is, Kahlan’s half sister was the queen of one of the main nations of the Midlands, Galea. She decided not to pledge Galea’s soldiers to the war against the Imperial Order, and Kahlan’s half brother, who was a general, delivered the message. She tried to convince him to ignore those orders and bring her the army anyway. He refused, and then the rants, threats, and silent assassination took place.
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I’d still consider Kahlan to be more decent than most Confessors, though, if only because she actually has misgivings about the rampant infanticide and mind-rape of innocents that her order traditionally practiced.
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“So its a safe bet to wager that Free!-Murtagh + Thorn are more useful to Alagaesia than controlled!-Murtagh + Thorn in the long run of things, right?”
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Yes, and I agree with epicazeroth’s reasons for why that would be the Murtagh used in this battle.
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“Would a different take on this that I’m thinking about posting be good (it’s a “What If” of if these two continents and several others were all in the same world)?”
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In like, a non-warfare scenario? Yeah, that’d be interesting.
@AHEM
Do they have the time to try to find such a means, given the Mage!-hunts that the IO among the SoT invaders will be doing, in particular?
You mean like Post-Endor’s Fold Spaces or the DA Rogue’s abilities to make like Ninjas or something?
Krap!!!!
Did it state why didn’t Kahlan’s half-sis decide to help out, so I can at least grit my teeth on their family and such?
Perhaps…heh, kind of sounds like one of my User!-namesake’s cousins, except with acute cases of WoS(Waste of Space) issues like one wouldn’t believe.(No offense intended to you, of course AHEM)
I figured as much.
Why don’t you try your hand at it, your Imperator?
P.S: Which would be more fairer for Eragon in the long run of things, fighting E.U Pre-Endor Luke, or fighting E.U Post-Endor Pre-NJO Luke, actually?
The former can be fought to a standstill by the likes of the Tenchi Universe’s!-version of Tenchi Masaki, the latter is tricky but considering I’m asking on Pre-NJO incarnations, it might still be able to work.
@AHEM
I kind of rushed Saber vs Kahlan, so if you mind checking it out in particular, I’d appreciate it, in fact!
I suggested it.
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Now, why don’t we stop seeing who’ll win for a moment, and consider what people will do? I don’t know about SoT, os I can’t say anything about that. Galby seems like he’d be balanced by Nasuada and the other leaders, so they won’t go and fight instantly. How many troops can each of the Alagaësian groups field?
@Epic
As far as I know, Sword of Truth doesn’t have guys capable of punching Eragon’s head clean off like the Camp Half-Blood residents or the Dresden Files(not necessarily*for now, probably* Dresden himself, but his godmother and their boss in Queen Mab and anyone of her tier+ would qualify) do.
Given the magical firepower that Sword of Truth has in their favor and how most of it has the subtility of a Nuclear Warhead, they probably don’t need the natural physical strength to do likewise either if they can get Eragon.
Easier said than done?
Maybe.
Still possible?
We think so.
P.S To Epic:
You mean how many forces can each of the Alagaesian factions field at a time, or how many at maximum manpower for each group?
“Do they have the time to try to find such a means, given the Mage!-hunts that the IO among the SoT invaders will be doing, in particular?”
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Yeah, I’d say so. They can hang behind during the initial battles while researching how to cure Oromis, as restoring him to his full power would be great asset.
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“You mean like Post-Endor’s Fold Spaces or the DA Rogue’s abilities to make like Ninjas or something?”
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It’s not so much warping space, more like your entire body being dematerialized and then rebuilt very quickly, used for short distance teleportation.
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“Did it state why didn’t Kahlan’s half-sis decide to help out, so I can at least grit my teeth on their family and such?”
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She had previously been captured by the Imperial Order, who left her in a cell with several condemned criminals to be brutalized. She left Kahlan as her acting replacement while she recovered, but once she had, she decided that she didn’t like the idea of Galea being committed to war with the IO, and ordered that the Galean troops already with Kahlan would withdraw back to Galea and none further would help. Kahlan and Zedd just kind of waved their hands and said, “well, she’s obviously deranged.”
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“Why don’t you try your hand at it, your Imperator?”
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At what?
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“P.S: Which would be more fairer for Eragon in the long run of things, fighting E.U Pre-Endor Luke, or fighting E.U Post-Endor Pre-NJO Luke, actually?”
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Well, I’m not really very well read on the E.U., but most of the abilities that I’ve heard about Luke having there would destroy Eragon very quickly, and and even without those it is extremely unlikely that Eragon’s wards could stop a lightsaber if only due to the sheer heat they impart on contact. It would have to be a very weak version of Luke for Eragon to stand much of a chance.
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“How many troops can each of the Alagaësian groups field?”
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Well, the largest faction is the Empire, with over 100,000 soldiers (which may or may not include Galbatorix’s main army of 16,000). The Varden was originally about 3,000-4,000 strong, but grew larger after they began spreading the word against Eragon. The Surdans would be weaker than Galbatorix’s original army, probably 10,000-15,000. The dwarves were strong enough to turn the tide of battle for the Varden and Surdans against Galbatorix’s 100k army, the urgals almost managed to destroy the entire dwarven kingdom, and the elves are unknown but superhuman. Even assuming fairly high estimates, Alagaësia is going to be outnumbered probably twenty to one or so.
@AHEM
So Eragon + Galbatorix could work to restore Oromis back to his former glory as best as they can manage, right?
Intriguing, any glitches to contend with, though?
Couldn’t Kahlan at least have tried to snap her half-sister(whose side of the family is she from, exactly?The Mother or the Father?) back to enough of her senses, at least?
My U.-Namesake’s cousin would have made more effort than this. =_=’
I meant at Alagaesia vs twilight, in fact.
That’s why I had to ask whether it should be Pre-Endor incarnations(Like Shadows of the Empire for instance being allowed) or just the Post-Endor Pre-NJO incarnations that should be used.
That said, should I take it as Universe!-Tenchi Masaki’s odds against Current!-Eragon’s would be at least as high as E.U Pre-Endor Luke’s own?
So as well-noted before, Alagaesia’s still massively outmanned either way, right?
I knew about the humans, but what about the Elves, Dwarves, Urgals (Kull in particular), and the Tribes?
@Epic
Let’s await what the Imperator has to add on each of the groups you listed off, before we can expect to expand onwards for sake of the discussions and move beyond the blasted 8th page, okay?
“So Eragon + Galbatorix could work to restore Oromis back to his former glory as best as they can manage, right?”
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That’s what I thought, yes.
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“Intriguing, any glitches to contend with, though?”
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None that I’m aware of.
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“Couldn’t Kahlan at least have tried to snap her half-sister(whose side of the family is she from, exactly?The Mother or the Father?) back to enough of her senses, at least?”
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They have the same father.
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They were hundreds of miles away, in the middle of a massive war, and Kahlan only heard about it when her half-brother arrived to take back the Galeans among her army, and he was not at all receptive to her persuasions. That’s not to say that I agree with her decisions, just to say that the two of them meeting at that point wouldn’t have been practical.
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“I meant at Alagaesia vs twilight, in fact.”
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You mean suggesting it?
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“So as well-noted before, Alagaesia’s still massively outmanned either way, right?”
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Yes, of course. That’s kind of the idea of the odds being twenty to one against Alagaësia.
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“I knew about the humans, but what about the Elves, Dwarves, Urgals (Kull in particular), and the Tribes?”
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In my first post, I estimated them all at 30,000-40,000 each, but that was pretty arbitrary and might not be entirely accurate. And the Kull are the elite of the urgals and rarely leave their caves except for war, so they would be a minority.
@AHEM
Then best of odds to them in the project.
Nothing akin to Potter-world Splinching or a huge drain akin to the Gundam 00 Raiser’s abilities to dodge lethal attacks at the last minute with the after-effects, you mean?
Blast it!!!
The Crappy Circumstances just serve as venom to rub to the proverbal pus wounds, right?
Pretty much I meant suggesting Alagaesia vs twilight, after The Aiel Clans vs Alagaesia arrives.
Well that shouldn’t be too bad unless they had to fight the massive numbers shown in the Towers of Midnight novel that Rand had to wipe out, and it’d be a matter of just whether or not the Alagaesians could survive long enough to not get mutilated in the allotted amount of time required to survive, in fact and instead this ought to be easier by leaps and bounds in comparison, right?
Still no walk in the park, but hey its something.
What are the recalculated numbers you’d be able to analyze, your Imperator?
Uhm, I’m pretty sure this is an occasion for the Kull to leave their caves. Considering the Trial of Long Knives, the Tribes are pretty hardcore.
@Epic
How large are the Kull, usually speaking again?
8 feet I think. They can also run almost as fast as Elves, are about the same strength, and have huge stamina.
@AHEM
How reliable might the Kull become, if used correctly via the Alagaesians in a major confrontation in this war?
“Nothing akin to Potter-world Splinching or a huge drain akin to the Gundam 00 Raiser’s abilities to dodge lethal attacks at the last minute with the after-effects, you mean?”
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Well, it did trigger one of his seizures, but that was due to the damage that had been done to him by the Forsworn, which made it exceptionally hard (and afterwards, impossible) for him to work powerful magic, not a natural consequence of the spell itself. He wouldn’t be able to do that spell again in his current state, but he shouldn’t have any problems if he is healed.
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“What are the recalculated numbers you’d be able to analyze, your Imperator?”
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You mean the numbers for Alagaësia’s soldiers? I can’t remember any case in the last novel where they were quantified beyond what I had before, so all I really have is guesswork. I’d still say that Alagaësia’s total forces are between 200,000 and 250,000.
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“Uhm, I’m pretty sure this is an occasion for the Kull to leave their caves.”
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Of course, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. I just mentioned that in the context of the Kull being a minority.
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“8 feet I think.”
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That’s the minimum height to be considered a Kull; some of them are a little taller. Nar Garzhvog, for instance, is eight and a half feet.
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“How reliable might the Kull become, if used correctly via the Alagaesians in a major confrontation in this war?”
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Well, the Kull commanders tend to be intelligent and good tactical minds, and even the soldiers are far from mindless beasts, so I don’t think their reliability is in question. The only issues that might arise are the mutual hatred between them and the other races, which along with their very different cultures, makes it difficult for them to work together. Roran had to wrestle an urgal ram into submission in order to keep his post when he commanded a small mixed unit, and that was supposed to be an assortment of men and urgals who were exceptionally cool-headed!
I should also mention that Kull are exceptionally wide and thick for their size. Even the non-Kull urgals are described as being “as broad as a doorway,” and in the first book, Eragon described a Kull as having legs as thick as tree trunks.
@AHEM on #780
So we can never be sure as to how much of it was due to the damage on Oromis via the Forsworn’s hands, and how much of it was due to the spell’s natural consequences, right?
This might take a while for Eragon + Galbatorix and nada short of a race against time before they can find out if Oromis can be healed in time, right?
So between 200,000-250,000 for the total Alagaesian fighting forces, right?
YIKES!
Roran had to deal with the threat of lack of subordination via Asskicking Equals Authority, to boot, and when one of the only few guys(Murtagh + Thorn notwithstanding as ever, of course) had to worry about the lack of co-operation, you know there’s a problem, right?
So the Kull range between 8 feet tall and 12 feet tall usually, right?
“So we can never be sure as to how much of it was due to the damage on Oromis via the Forsworn’s hands, and how much of it was due to the spell’s natural consequences, right?”
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Glaedr said that it was due to the damage done by the Forsworn and never said anything about the spell doing that naturally. In fact, that Oromis was taken off guard and immobilized in the middle of a battle indicates that this is not a natural consequence of the spell itself. It’d be a stretch to assume that the spell had any immediate consequences like that besides possibly a high energy cost, and it couldn’t even be that high, as this was Oromis before Naegling was super-charged.
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“This might take a while for Eragon + Galbatorix and nada short of a race against time before they can find out if Oromis can be healed in time, right?”
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I’m picturing it as less of a race and more of a hit or miss. Depends on whether they can use the Name of the All Names and just purge the effects of the damage from him. If they can’t, then they can’t, and it’s unlikely that additional research will be able to cure him in any time-effective manner.
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“So between 200,000-250,000 for the total Alagaesian fighting forces, right?”
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That’s my estimate, yes. Didn’t I just say that in my last post?
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“Roran had to deal with the threat of lack of subordination via Asskicking Equals Authority, to boot, and when one of the only few guys(Murtagh + Thorn notwithstanding as ever, of course) had to worry about the lack of co-operation, you know there’s a problem, right?”
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The only few guys? I don’t know what you’re talking about. There are plenty of men in Alagaësia, it isn’t just Roran, Murtagh, and Thorn.
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If you meant one of the few DECENT guys, well yeah, but it was more because of the existing conflicts between urgals and men, not an issue with Roran’s leadership.
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“So the Kull range between 8 feet tall and 12 feet tall usually, right?”
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I never read anything about them reaching heights of twelve feet. Only that they’re eight feet and up and one Kull was described as eight and a half feet. They might, but I don’t think it was ever confirmed.
Query: Are we including the Debt of Bones novella for SoT?
If so … we can consider Alagaesia screwed, as SoT can call up the Underworld Barriers, and by my read, it seems like it was implied that they were supposed to be rolling death curtains sweeping the targeted chunk of dirt, but Zedd chose to fix them in place instead of having them roll across the land and committing genocide. Plus, then SoT gets a fair number more combat casters, Zedd gets homing wizard fire death, a load of Confessors (including Kahlan’s mother).
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Also, the constructs used on the Imperial Order near Aydrindril would be sufficient to one-shot Alagaesia’s forces (that light web construct took out half a million in direct casualties – and an indeterminate number more in secondary effects).
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Also … any assassination attempts that took out Zedd or Kahlan – or anyone else Richard cares deeply about – before Richard himself would backfire horrifically.
In addition, when we see Darken Rahl, right up until it kills him, he’s under the protection of Orden.
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Where does it say Chainfire starts the end of the world? I don’t remember that, though I remember it had acted oddly because of the corruption of the Chimes. Also, the logical thing for SoT to target Chainfire upon would be the Ancient Language itself.
At any rate, even though it is exceedingly unlikely, and largely against their character, SoT could summon the chimes to nerfbat magic for an extended period of time to have it be steel against steel, and then undo the work of the Chimes (I suspect that the Imperial Order would be rather more likely to be willing to unleash the Chimes than the New Worlders).
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Hold it, if Alagaesia is getting the Name of All Names (aka, its ultimate power), why does SoT not get things like Orden?
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Heh. SoT could just release the Keeper into the world of the Living (I don’t think it matters how powerful Galby is in that scenario). Sure, it’s even more of a nuclear apocalypse option than the Chimes or Chainfire (or Orden), but it also almost happened.
@AHEM
Did Eragon ever learn how to do that thing, then?
Looks like they could use another weapon in Oromis + Glaedr, right?
I apologize for coming off as redundant!
That’s pretty much what I meant to say, and thank you for answering.
The Kull are still on large pretty much, right?(See what I did, there?)
@Kytheros
Shall we await what His Imperator has to say about the matters you listed in, actually?
I see unleashing the Keeper as being more unlikely to happen than getting the Chimes or Chainfire up and running, truth be told, unless no better options are available.
Oh, I agree, releasing the Keeper is … unlikely to be the strategy desired by the vast majority of SoT, and suboptimal at best. However, the Sisters of the Dark came exceedingly close to succeeding in getting him released in Pillars of Creation. I see no particular reason why they couldn’t redo the ritual (probably using Oba instead of Jensenn) and effectively ruin everybody’s day.
Admittedly, just about everybody else on the SoT side would try to stop them if they found out what they were planning, so it’s not the first choice.
@Kytheros
So the Sisters of the Dark are more likely to use that idea as a means of last resort, right?
No, they’re more likely to try for it as soon as the opportunity arises.
They came exceedingly close to succeeding in Pillars of Creation – book 7 – which is when the opportunity first arose (and is the only such opportunity that we’re aware of).
@Kytheros
So after either Jagang or any of the Rahls are killed, they might be more likely to attempt it with each successful kill the Alagaesians might manage?
Whack Jagang, and there’s nothing holding them back.
Kill Richard or Nathan and they’d no longer be able to interfere.
Shitbiscuits. Darken Rahl would probably be helping them.
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Oooh, Nathan, that reminds me. That fucker’s a genuine prophet, trained and experienced – he can see the future and the past and the now. Plus other assorted wizardly tricks. Good luck assassinating him.
@Kytheros
In other words, it might be in the Alagaesians’ best interests to kill as many of the Sisters of the Dark as possible, since if even one survives she might try to awaken the Keeper, right?
Afterwards they can get back to going after Jagang + The Rahls.
See, here’s the thing, the ritual was done in only one night, but Jensenn delayed the finish, by wanting to kill Richard because she believed he was responsible for the death of her mother.
Jennsenn is, alas, not the ideal option, Oba would work better for their purposes (and is thick enough to not want anything beyond the initial offer, thus it’d be one night).
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If the Sisters of the Dark want to release the Keeper … I don’t think Alagaesia has the time to learn of the threat, locate and then successfully kill them.
@Kytheros
So either way its a race against time that’s pretty much not on Alagaesia’s side in here, either way, isn’t it?
The only thing preventing the Sisters of the Dark from unleashing the Keeper is Jagang and the Rahls, and the Alagaesians will have no choice but to make haste in learning about the Sisters of the Dark before they even think about targeting the important targets that need to be slain, right?
Honestly? I don’t think the Alagaesians can – everyone actually who knows about the Sister’s of the Dark and their intense desire to release the Keeper is either protected by the Rahl Bond, has Jagang in their head, or is Jagang or a Rahl.
No gods or godlike entities.
@Epic + Kytheros
Shall we await what AHEM has to add?
“If so … we can consider Alagaesia screwed, as SoT can call up the Underworld Barriers, and by my read, it seems like it was implied that they were supposed to be rolling death curtains sweeping the targeted chunk of dirt, but Zedd chose to fix them in place instead of having them roll across the land and committing genocide. Plus, then SoT gets a fair number more combat casters, Zedd gets homing wizard fire death, a load of Confessors (including Kahlan’s mother).”
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Zedd was only able to create the boundaries through the use of an ancient constructed magic, which no one alive in the series can replicate, and it’s gone now. Without that, Zedd can no longer alter the boundaries or create new ones.
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Debt of Bones is also a prequel novella, not part of the SoT series itself. While things within should be considered canon (for example, establishing how a Confessor’s touch affects a Mord-Sith), bringing the characters there into the fight would be a stretch, since most of them are either useless in battle or dead by the time “Wizard’s First Rule” begins.
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“Also, the constructs used on the Imperial Order near Aydrindril would be sufficient to one-shot Alagaesia’s forces (that light web construct took out half a million in direct casualties – and an indeterminate number more in secondary effects).”
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That’s assuming that Alagaësia will put all of their armies in one location, and their spellcasters won’t sense the dormant spell, as they have the ability to. In fact, trying to use the light web against Alagaësia would likely only harm SoT, since an Alagaësian magician could very likely find the spell, deactivate/prevent it from going off, take it, and then use it against SoT.
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“In addition, when we see Darken Rahl, right up until it kills him, he’s under the protection of Orden.”
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It was intended, and mutually agreed upon, that Orden is left out of this match. No protection for Darken Rahl.
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“Where does it say Chainfire starts the end of the world? I don’t remember that, though I remember it had acted oddly because of the corruption of the Chimes. Also, the logical thing for SoT to target Chainfire upon would be the Ancient Language itself.
At any rate, even though it is exceedingly unlikely, and largely against their character, SoT could summon the chimes to nerfbat magic for an extended period of time to have it be steel against steel, and then undo the work of the Chimes (I suspect that the Imperial Order would be rather more likely to be willing to unleash the Chimes than the New Worlders).”
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It was stated all through the book called “Chainfire” from the point where they found the book detailing it onward. Richard even summed it up to Zedd as, “the end of the world as we know it.” (Chapter 66) A quote, also from chapter 66 of “Chainfire.”
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“It unravels people’s memory of the subject, but it was discovered that the ignition of such an event starts a cascade that can’t be predicted or controlled. Much like a wild fire, it continues to burn through links with others whose memory has not been altered. It eventually unravels the world of life itself.”
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The only way to completely remove Chainfire is through the boxes of Orden, which have been removed from this debate. Without them, SoT would be unable to use the Chainfire event to their advantage, because merely unleashing would ensure that they would destroy themselves even if they immediately beat Alagaësia, meaning a draw.
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It’s doubtful that Chainfire would even affect Alagaësia in any serious manner, as every important character there can shield their minds against memory alteration magic, and also detect where memories have been altered and restore them. (Such as when Eragon checked Katrina’s memories in “Brisingr” to make sure that they had not been tampered with.) Chainfire has been thwarted by small scale memory-protecting defenses before. So, SoT would probably just be shooting themselves in the foot trying to invoke Chainfire.
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As for the Chimes, I still think anyone in SoT invoking demonic entities that have hideous long-term corruption effects on the world and can only be removed by Orden is a serious stretch, but even if they did, to try to just make it a game of warfare with no magic, it would leave the higher-ups in SoT exceptionally vulnerable. With the heavy hitters like the Rahls or Jagang deprived of their main abilities, they would be vulnerable to assassin teams of elves and Ra’zac, who possess superhuman physical capabilities even without magic. Without magic, SoT would really have no way of stopping them from sneaking into their bases and killing their leaders.
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“Hold it, if Alagaesia is getting the Name of All Names (aka, its ultimate power), why does SoT not get things like Orden?”
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Just because someone can look at the two and say they’re both “ultimate powers” doesn’t mean that they’re equivalent or that banning one but not the other makes for an unfair fight. Orden is banned for the same reason that neither side gets all the various gods and deities that are described within; they’re just instawin buttons that take all thoughts of comparing the actual characters and armies within the series out of the game. The Name of All Names, while powerful, is not nearly so much of an “I win” button.
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“Heh. SoT could just release the Keeper into the world of the Living (I don’t think it matters how powerful Galby is in that scenario). Sure, it’s even more of a nuclear apocalypse option than the Chimes or Chainfire (or Orden), but it also almost happened.”
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Firstly, gods are banned, so the Keeper isn’t even available. Secondly, if the Keeper was actually unleashed, he’d turn right around and destroy SoT right after finishing Alagaësia, so it would be another case of mutually assured destruction at best.
@AHEM
How come there’s so much variety in terms of MAD tactics taking place in the match itself, lately?
I just made up a random spell that would be super awesome and very destructive. Here it is:
Anori ai orum abr arucane.
(Create a serpent of living fire/endless fire.)
Guess what it does? Here’s lists of words to create spells if you want:
arcaneveil.lefora.com/2008/08/15/ancient-language-eragon/
inheritance.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Language
inheritance.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells
@epicazeroth
(Create a serpent of living fire/endless fire.)
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From what little I know of their magic, using the word “endless” is not a good idea.