Suggested by sapper007
Another match that I can’t believe hasn’t been posted yet, but here it is, and here we go. I know that Dante has some firepower that could do some damage to Sephiroth, but I just can’t see him being able to pull out a victory in this match.
Who do you think would win?
Dante is hypersonic sephiroth is supersonic, you do the math and tell me who wins
My gravatar>>>>Dante and Sephiroth
“Dante is hypersonic sephiroth is supersonic, you do the math and tell me who wins”
^this
“My gravatar>>>>Dante and Sephiroth”
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Truth
dante for the fp award sunday
Alright, lessee. Since people did ask me to chime in on this.
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1) Dante’s maximum possible speed is Mach 6 or just slightly past, given all available evidence. The speed feats on the other forum (KMC?) were grossly inflated, and often flat-out incorrect, and thus should not be taken as valid for anything other than a baseline for where to start on the ACTUAL math.
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2) I’m afraid I didn’t quite see it earlier in the thread, but how are we certain Sephiroth can deflect the rate of fire Dante is capable of putting out? I understand dodging it, if Zach was shown to do so in a similar situation, but attempting to parry a cloud of lead with a weapon a few inches from front to back and maybe a couple millimeters wide at best seems…odd.
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3) Sephiroth retains a certain number of innate powers that replicate the effects of materia, but as I recall he wasn’t being allowed actual materia for this debate. Did he actually have Stop as one of his inherent abilities then, or is that a materia-based power?
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4) Why exactly would Sephiroth’s sword-beams go past Rebellion and through Dante? Unless I read that wrong, but it seems likely Dante would be able to do much the same as Genesis and swat through said sword-beams, though he’d be cut by them certainly if they hit him. Nevermind he also has Drive in case Rebellion alone would be insufficient.
5) Dante’s regeneration is instantaneous – vastly superior to Wolverine’s, Alucard’s, or pretty much any other character in recent fiction. As to the clothing damage, it seems very much like whatever energy powers the twins’ healing also repairs their clothing, unless they are so injured that their healing itself is failing. But why Vergil’s coat and shirt were unharmed at the end of 3 is not explained, then.
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6)…I forget what 6 was supposed to be. But again, if we gauge Dante’s speed at mach 6 or just above (admittedly sprinting straight down, but his reflexes are on or around that level). and Sephiroth is only around Mach 1 or just above, isn’t it fairly likely that Dante retains an advantage even in the face of Sephiroth’s superior baseline striking strength and magic?
And as I said a *while* ago in my earlier post, Dante can take a cut or a few from the Masamune, but a few good rams of Rebellion through Sephiroth’s torso ought to pretty much end the match….
Unless I’m missing counterpoints? Again, my eyes kind of went crossways trying to read through the thread…
“3) Sephiroth retains a certain number of innate powers that replicate the effects of materia, but as I recall he wasn’t being allowed actual materia for this debate. Did he actually have Stop as one of his inherent abilities then, or is that a materia-based power?”
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I don’t think Stop was one of the ones from the Bizarro Sephiroth or Safer Sephiroth fights where he used his powers.
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“4) Why exactly would Sephiroth’s sword-beams go past Rebellion and through Dante? ”
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Observer said it wouldn’t as Rebellion has withstood blows from Yamato before.
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“5) Dante’s regeneration is instantaneous – vastly superior to Wolverine’s, Alucard’s, or pretty much any other character in recent fiction.”
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What about Lobo?
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“isn’t it fairly likely that Dante retains an advantage even in the face of Sephiroth’s superior baseline striking strength and magic?”
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In terms of running speed, not in a straight line, isn’t he only supersonic still? If not, he has a hefty advantage over Sephy there.
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“but a few good rams of Rebellion through Sephiroth’s torso ought to pretty much end the match….”
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I’d think one or two may be all that’s needed considering Dante’s strength. Especially in Devil Trigger.
” if we gauge Dante’s speed at mach 6 or just above”
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actually mach 11-10 thanks to this feat from vergil www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_53jO8Ht7Y Distance(m) / Time(s) = Scene speed(m/s)
0.5 / 12 = 0.0416666667
Actual speed outside of that slow-down effect(m/s) / Scene speed(m/s) = How much faster Vergil was than he appeared(x)
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,” isn’t it fairly likely that Dante retains an advantage even in the face of Sephiroth’s superior baseline striking strength and magic?”
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yes and seing as his attacks possess explosive properties www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACnJYJc23PA (0:38)
www.watchcartoononline.com/devil-may-cry-episode-12-english-dubbed (00:18:16) destroys part of a building
15 / 0.0416666667 = 360x
(x) * Vergil’s scene speed(m/s) = Vergil’s actual speed(m/s)
360 * 10 = 3,600
3,600 m/s = Mach 10.57921185
Depending on the Abyss used you can use the above or a (1m / 25s) for the initial Distance/Time to get 3,750m/s or Mach 11.02.
” As to the clothing damage, it seems very much like whatever energy powers the twins’ healing also repairs their clothing, unless they are so injured that their healing itself is failing. But why Vergil’s coat and shirt were unharmed at the end of 3 is not explained, then.”
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I think that’s just game mechanics since in the anime when abigale was impaling him his clothes had holes in them
@ Chuck
Okay, no. No no no no a thousand times no, and I and other people shouldn’t have to say it again.
That example is WRONG. And it is wrong because there is no evidence, at ALL, that the Abyss enemies in the scene are moving anything faster than a normal human being.
The person attempting to MAKE that example first said only “I’m going to assume they’re faster than normal humans”, then pulled a number out of NOWHERE, and extrapolated from that.
That is not how arguing, debating, or even basic mathematics work. Fanwank doesn’t become more valid because someone attaches numbers and then hopes no one notices the obvious. Especially when this is the same person guessing that the Temen-ni-gru scene (Which one COULD do math for to suggest a hypersonic speed for Dante, fairly easily!) was three to four times faster than it had any reason to be, based purely on, again, numbers pulled from nowhere with the flimsiest of excuses.
Bottom line: there is no evidence presented ANYWHERE that suggests Dante is very far past Mach 6. The sole argument that could be made in that respect is for the Temen-ni-gru scene, but NO ONE has done that, certainly not this ludicrous fanwanker on the other forum. Stop trying to use it as an example, it makes you look bad and reflects poorly on the character you’re arguing for.
As for Dante’s attacks possessing explosive properties, yes and no. All available evidence – the scenes in the manga, multiple scenes including your example from the anime, etc. – show clearly that this is a function of Dante’s energy: in much the same way he can scale up and down his own level of defense, he can weaponize it. Thus, scenes where Dante’s attacks cause explosive effects can be taken to be his creating the effect intentionally (Or just him swinging THAT HARD, if you want to play really loose with physics). It is NOT something his strikes normally do, though. However, there’s nothing keeping him from doing it (and in fact against Sephiroth it would be wise AND necessary, as the latter’s blows are shown to have the same effect).
As to game mechanics, I’m inclined to agree, though I hold onto my headcanon that it’s their regenerative powers affecting their clothes as well – Dante’s clothingremains intact through all the events in DMC save two of Vergil’s cuts and bullets from Lady’s guns, but of those three things only damage from the blows from Yamato is shown in later cutscenes. However, Occam’s Razor puts you as correct for that one.
@Soldier’s Shadow
I reference my earlier large post in regards to that: Sephiroth can take a blow that SHOULD bisect him and retain physical coherency, but evidence indicates that he’s vastly more incapacitated by such an injury than Dante would be. That’s solely according to Advent Children though, so if other evidence contradicts it, I am unaware.
Also, I know nothing of Lobo! Except for the hilarious Author-On-Board that apparently allows him to be a viable threat to Superman sometimes.
“ALL, that the Abyss enemies in the scene are moving anything faster than a normal human being”
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For his calcs he had they’re speed as below peak human though And it’s obvious you don’t see they’re speed in that cutscene because we’re watching from vergil’s POV seeing how fast they move in his eyes.. And I’m pretty sure he low balled the abyss movement too cause they move pretty fast www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCtVgsJwyvg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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“Temen-ni-gru scene (Which one COULD do math for to suggest a hypersonic speed for Dante, fairly easily!) ”
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Which was Mach 10 saying he can only move that fast on a vertical drop because he has no gravity to pull him back is BS cause I’m pretty sure gravity would cause Dante any trouble since he’s a 1000 tonner
1000 ton strength? What-the-heck, Since when?
@Chuck
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The point is still that he pulls a number out of nowhere for the Abyss enemies, and then extrapolates from there. If he did say he was setting t below human speed, then that’s a different example from the one I read.
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Further, he knows how far Vergil moved, and exactly the difference between how fast he appeared to be moving and how fast he actually was how?
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Not that all those things are impossible, but that requires working solely with estimations, not solid numbers. And again, the math literally cannot support Mach 11 movement. ESPECIALLY if the Abyss enemies are going BELOW peak human in it – if that’s the case, Vergil doesn’t need to be going very far past the sound barrier period.
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As for Temen-ni-gru, no, it was not a Mach 10 scene. I pointed that out, and also pointed out why exactly the Mach 10 rating was bullshit, on multiple levels (He doesn’t need to be moving too far past Mach 6 to create the friction burn we see, AND he only needs to be going very slightly faster than the sword to catch up with it in the time we see).
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You CAN gauge that scene to be hypersonic or high-hypersonic by assuming Temen-ni-gru is the size it actually appears in the game. But until someone puts up valid math for that, no: Dante is in the area of Mach 6 at absolute best.
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There are no scenes, anywhere ever, of Dante pulling that kind of speed in overland movement. FURTHER, we know for absolute fact that a tremendous deal of Dante’s strength is actually his demonic energy – the cutting of buildings, etc., all has little to do with his actual physical strength.
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@Alpha or Omega
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We figured that out in the Dante vs Kharn thread. The short version is, to block the punch from the Savior that Dante receives in DMC4, he has to be capable of ‘tanking’ an amount of force at LEAST in the area of 100+ tons per square inch. And the front of the Savior’s fist has many, MANY square inches on it. I had to estimate based on the weight of marble, guesses on the cubic feet of the stone-like matter in the Savior’s arm, comparison to MMA fighters of similar builds, etc. The KMC forums did it a different way and came out with higher numbers (Big surprise), but we were also working from different basis (I maintain the Savior’s ‘skin’ alone is stone, while their assumption was the entire structure is, and all fleshy parts are alternate dimensions held within the statue. Both are potentially valid given the in-game information).
“We figured that out in the Dante vs Kharn thread. The short version is, to block the punch from the Savior that Dante receives in DMC4, he has to be capable of ‘tanking’ an amount of force at LEAST in the area of 100+ tons per square inch. And the front of the Savior’s fist has many, MANY square inches on it. I had to estimate based on the weight of marble, guesses on the cubic feet of the stone-like matter in the Savior’s arm, comparison to MMA fighters of similar builds, etc. The KMC forums did it a different way and came out with higher numbers (Big surprise), but we were also working from different basis (I maintain the Savior’s ‘skin’ alone is stone, while their assumption was the entire structure is, and all fleshy parts are alternate dimensions held within the statue. Both are potentially valid given the in-game information).”
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Are you sure that’s not cis or pis? I mean, it doesn’t seem likely compared to other his strength feats.
Hrm. Specifying. The SHATTERING of buildings, like what Dante causes in the finale of the anime against Abigor (I will never use the poor romanization if I can help it) is a function of his energy. Things like cutting the dice in DMC4, and even potentially blowing small-scale gashes in buildings, could just be him swinging *that hard*. Given that Sephiroth’s basic striking strength is in the area of what Dante does in the finale of the anime, though, that’s not as big a gap as it seems at first.
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Of course, the speed difference and Dante’s ability to upscale his strength accordingly means he pretty much wins any melee exchange anyway. The threat isn’t that, it’s Sephiroth’s superior base mobility and the instant-win spells Dante doesn’t have defenses against.
Though it’s just the instant-win spells. I believe it was Chuck who argued that the elemental spells wouldn’t be overly effective against Dante earlier in this thread, and for some of them at least, that holds true – Dante can definitely at least take 1600+ degree temperatures (Celsius if I remember right) without even discomfort, and we’ve seen him ‘power through’ lightning (of unknown amperage, admittedly), with a giant piece of metal through his chest.
@Alpha or Omega
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Very. Odd as it seems, it’s actually supported by several other things in that game – the way he holds up to attacks from Nero, for example, whose arm is bar none the strongest physical force in the entirety of the franchise. Specifically the first fight’s finale, (where Nero HAMMERS him in a way that is downright uncomfortable to watch), and their exchange before their second duel, where Dante holds onto Nero’s arm for several seconds before letting go, going by other examples of Nero’s strength and what he does to the wall after stumbling into it when Dante lets go.
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That said, It’s somewhat doubtful Dante can keep up that level of strength ALL the time. Though the fact he was pulling that off at the end of what had to be a brutally hard fight, after an entire day of fighting and two duels against someone with an arm stronger than his whole body is…*something*.
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I can put up the relevant scenes if you like – I am fully aware it’s alot to ask someone to accept without the examples.
Alright, I believe you. With those scenes (I’ve seen one of them just now), It’s more than possible for Dante. Dang, never thought that silver haired demon was capable of that strength… I should probably regret suggesting Samus vs Dante.
@Alpha or Omega
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Derp, misremembered my own math. Also, thought of this last night as I was falling asleep, but had to work early so didn’t post it.
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First, if you scale the Savior’s punch to the lowest possible number(assuming a direct proportion increase in power to an MMA fighter of similar body type, then carving in half for a kneeling position, then carving in half again for it ‘dying’ as it strikes), you get something more like 27 tons PSI. It’s still an *insanely* huge number, but nearly so much so as the 90+ tons PSI that just a carved-in-half punch has. It’s also the number I prefer, as it correlates better with the other examples.
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Also, it’s important to note that a punch is not like, say, a moving vehicle. To explain, being punched by Quentin “Rampage” Jackson is much like getting hit in the face with a car – 1800 PSI (Pounds force Per Square Inch). However, a punch only has Instantaneous force: it strikes whatever it’s coming at, and then its motion is expended. Versus say, an actual car, which has continuous force. This is why being hit by a car at a comparable speed hurts more.
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The Savior in the cited scene is striking *down* at Dante, which admittedly adds weight even while robbing the punch of strength: Once he blocks the initial strike, Dante’s still got the full weight of the thing’s arm plus much of its upper body on him. But that’s much less than the massive PSI of the initial punch. He *does* manage to shift the entirety of the Savior a small amount when he ‘throws’ the arm off of himself, but again, that’s still a much smaller number than that initial strike.
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Also, NEVER is Dante’s striking strength shown to be on par with his bracing strength in that scene, aside from instances where he’s augmenting it with his powers. It’s certainly not on par with the baseline Sephiroth displays without that augmentation.
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As to Samus vs Dante, I’ve pondered that myself. It’s…a LOT like the match against Kharn actually, except Samus has the same “I will never run out of ammo” advantage Dante does, plus the variety and her shields. She’s typically slower than what he displays though.
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@Chuck
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Regarding overland movement and achieving Mach speeds: Think of how a falling object, pretty much any object, can hit friction-burn speeds just descending through the atmosphere. Now note how it’s nearly impossible to get an object traveling horizontally to do that without the most advanced jet engines and construction in the world.
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MORE so, those planes in particular (the SR-71 Blackbird, for this example) have to fly extremely high to manage those speeds. And the *higher* you go, the slower you need to be going to pass the sound barrier.
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The altitude thing is actually key there, as well. Temen-ni-gru would have to be MILES tall for that scene to be happening at the speeds it appears to. Like, high up in the atmosphere tall. But if it IS, that suddenly makes the scene more reasonable: Dante isn’t hitting the sea level requirement for Mach 6, he’s hitting whatever it is up near the stratosphere or so.
Of course, that’s an IF.
“The point is still that he pulls a number out of nowhere for the Abyss enemies, and then extrapolates from there. If he did say he was setting t below human speed, then that’s a different example from the one I read.”
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When doing calcs on characters without knowing their exact speed, we always use human/peak human as the base. . Thats the lowest you go without suggesting sub-human speeds.
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“Further, he knows how far Vergil moved, and exactly the difference between how fast he appeared to be moving and how fast he actually was how?”
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-Its there in the calc. Abyss actual speed / Abyss slow-mo speed = Time dilation, Time dilation * Vergil’s slow-mo speed = Vergil actual speed. Standard dilation calc.
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“Not that all those things are impossible, but that requires working solely with estimations, not solid numbers. And again, the math literally cannot support Mach 11 movement. ESPECIALLY if the Abyss enemies are going BELOW peak human in it – if that’s the case, Vergil doesn’t need to be going very far past the sound barrier period.”"
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“-Its not wort arguing his third point. ‘He doesnt need to’ is a poor argument.
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“As for Temen-ni-gru, no, it was not a Mach 10 scene. I pointed that out, and also pointed out why exactly the Mach 10 rating was bullshit, on multiple levels (He doesn’t need to be moving too far past Mach 6 to create the friction burn we see, AND he only needs to be going very slightly faster than the sword to catch up with it in the time we see).”
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“1. OBD has agreed that a fist needs to move at Mach 7 to get that kind of friction.
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“You CAN gauge that scene to be hypersonic or high-hypersonic by assuming Temen-ni-gru is the size it actually appears in the game. But until someone puts up valid math for that, no: Dante is in the area of Mach 6 at absolute best.”
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2. Dante runs faster than the sword. Discussed with others and roughly 1.5x was the number settled on from the rate at which advances on it. [Basically, we know its defiantly above 1.1x and up to 2x] 3. Law of Aerodynamics; a fist has a larger [50cm2] and flatter surface area than a sword tip [2cm2], thus the sword creates far less drag and creates less friction. Meaning the sword would need to move faster to get the same friction.
= Mach 10+
“(…)designed to explore the areas of high aerodynamic heating rates, stability and control, physiological phenomena, and other problems relating to hypersonic flight (above Mach 5).” ~NASA
^And as we already know the heat we see in that scene is great enough to be /clearly visible/, NASA says that this kind of heat comes from speed above Mach 5.
Ignoring the law of aerodynamics, Mach 10 would still be the bare minimum for that scene.
“The altitude thing is actually key there, as well. Temen-ni-gru would have to be MILES tall for that scene to be happening at the speeds it appears to.”
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ITS IN SLOW MOTION HENCE THE REASON WE SEE THE BULLET
@Chuck
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Sigh
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Right, so again: I proved mathematically Dante does NOT need to be moving 1.5X faster than his sword to catch up with it in that scene. Even if you scale the math up to Mach 7, there is still no circumstance in which the difference between Dante and the sword’s speed needs to be that great. It’s nice people can come to a consensus on wank numbers though. If I must, I’ll put up the math showing that.
Which I’m fairly sure invalidates the entirety of the rest of your argument there, if those other examples are attached to it. He barely even needs to be moving 1.1 to catch up to the sword in that time; 1.5 is absolutely wrong.
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As to Vergil. First, “he doesn’t need to” is not a poor argument, unless, again, someone’s clinging desperately to wank numbers. Point of fact it’s been the most valid way of figuring out several things for Dante in threads like this (Please don’t make me bring up that ludicrous argument about pushing the Savior off of him again)
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Once again, we know how slowed down Vergil is in comparison to normal how? We now how slow the Abyss enemies are moving compared to peak human, as far as exact numbers, how (though that one actually sounds valid). Further, a scene with below peak human enemies and the speed Vergil moves there, can NOT come out to that fast, no matter how you try to twist the math.
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Also, once again, the formula you reference is incomplete. Like the wildly too high estimation of Dante’s speed in the scene with Lady, we still need to know the DISTANCE something moves to get a true gauge of the speed involved. It’s possible, like I did, to get a baseline of the speed (something undoubtedly much lower than the numbers they came up with), but the exact number remains elusive until a gauge of distance exists.
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Finally – If you’re going to cite arguments, try putting up the entire argument, not just snippets taken out of context that don’t MEAN anything without their context. This:
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Law of Aerodynamics; a fist has a larger [50cm2] and flatter surface area than a sword tip [2cm2], thus the sword creates far less drag and creates less friction. Meaning the sword would need to move faster to get the same friction.
= Mach 10+
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Is not just an invalid argument, it’s not even an argument. It’s working off an objectively incorrect speed gauge first, and then it’s once AGAIN pulling a number out of absolutely nowhere and trying to insist it has to be accurate.
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You want to prove Dante’s this fast? Since apparently it needs explaining, here’s what you do. Get a look at the buildings around the base of Temen-ni-Gru. Get a gauge of how tall they are. Then take Leviathan, and get a gauge of how tall IT is (you can use Dante’s height in relation to its eye to gauge that) from belly to head.
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Using either of those, add together until you get the height for Temen-ni-Gru as shown in comparison to either of those objects (Leviathan will probably serve better there).
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This tells you exactly how much distance Dante has to move in the time the scene occurs. From there you have to estimate a little, but only a little: Dante leaps from the tower at what LOOKS like the halfway point. So cut the number in half.
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From there it’s easy. Find out how many Feet Per Second a baseline speed would be (let’s start with Mach 5, for argument’s sake). Measure how long it would take Dante to cover the provided (nearly exact, remember) distance. Then adjust the time it SEEMS to take according to the result. Remember he’s not moving at friction burn speeds until near the very end, though.
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You’ll notice not only is this method free of the fanwank bullshit, it also probably gives a similarly ludicrously-high number. You can ALSO work backwards from a given speed (Mach 5 to 7) to find how tall Temen-ni-gru SHOULD be.
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I don’t intend to do the math on it myself just now. But given that the examples you keep trying to cite are OBJECTIVELY WRONG, it might serve you or someone else to do so.
Ah right. And my disproving the 1.5x speed thing included the measurement of the speed the bullet could be moving in actuality. Though I could do that again, if we wanted variety, since I used the lowest gauge.
Also, even using the ACTUAL method of getting the speed for that scene per exact visuals, I’d still argue that it’s inaccurate as Dante moving at high-hypersonic speeds would not be what the developers intended. But then, there’s a ton of scenes in DMC that fall under that classification.
1. Double sigh?
2. I see no maths. Barely 1.1? 1.1x would make him appear near equal where its clear that he was moving noticeably faster than it.
Dug up the calc based off the slowed appeared speed in the scene;
“Rebellion length = 1.65m
Rebellion width= 0.38m
[Based on its height to Dante, guard from the sword length]
During the scene Rebellion appeared to be moving at 2.357m/s
[Based on the tower below covering the swords length in 0.7seconds, 1.65m / 0.7s]
When the sword appears stationary Dante is moving at 1.52m/s
[Based on Dante's movement. Covered 3.04m, 8 handle widths, in 2s]
..Making Dante’s apparent speed at 3.877m/s
[Dante moves 1.52m/s faster that the the 2.357m/s sword]
Meaning Dante was moving 1.645x Rebellion’s speed when catching up to it.”
Knew I had that saved somewhere… yeah, on this method some others got 1.45-1.8x.
3. It is. With that attitude tons of characters feats will be thrown out just because they ‘didnt need to’. A feat cannot be ignored just because of necessity. May as well debunk any speedster that has a feat around humans.
4. Basically the difference between the Abyss’ before(15m/s [though I think peak is around 20 ish]) and after(0.04m/s [25 seconds to move 1m]) speed is how slow the scene is compared to normal(1/375). For Vergil to do normal looking movements during this slow-mo effect means he was moving at hypersonic speed.
And 375x your average human speed is Mach 11 (10m/s*375=3,750m/s).
5. Lady scene method came from another poster, updated with recent bullet speed info. And how fast do you think you’d need to be to time his shot to collide with her Uzi shot by the time it moved 10cm? Not sure what the DISTANCE part is about..
6. Kinda obvious the scene wasnt in real time, so that whole Temen-ni-gru measuring wont work.. I mean, if the thing was 500m tall, and it took Dante 75 secs to reach half way, then he would be moving at an average of 3.57m/s….. This really need a comment?
7. I notice he didnt comment on the aerodynamic heating and how Mach 10 would be a lowball if we were to ponder what something with a surface area 1/25th that of a Ma7 hand used here would move at..
Okay. So, I caved in and did the math after all. And discovered something…well, not surprising in the least, but fascinating.
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If we take the times in the Temen-ni-gru dive as completely accurate, Dante spends ten seconds at Mach 6 to 7 after running and falling for a not-insignificant span of time. Assuming Rebellion was traveling at Mach 7 when it caught fire, and again assuming the times are accurate (even though we can see the bullet fired), that puts Dante’s speed at 5383.3 mph to catch up with it in the ten seconds it’s moving at friction burn speeds for.
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And yes, I can show my math on that. But that’s not the fascinating part.
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The fascinating part is, for those ten seconds (nevermind the entirety of the rest of the scene) to be possible, assuming Dante leaps off at the midway point of the tower, Temen-ni-gru has to be at minimum over 40 MILES tall.
5383.3 mph comes out to 4 miles per second (5383.3 divided by 60, divided by 60 again, 4.2 mps). Times ten, 40 miles in ten seconds.
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Temen-ni-gru is NOT that tall. It’s not even remotely *close*. How do I know this? Well, going purely by visuals, compare what the ground looks like from the pinnacle of the tower, (@18:55)
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am8LHE2dJSM
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To what the ground looks like just 15 miles above sea level
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQwLmGR6bPA
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So, @Chuck
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THIS is where you can found the argument for that scene being so ludicrously fast. No fake numbers pulled from thin air, just “If we take the times as exact, this is what has to be happening, and it is not the case.”
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Personally, I maintain the point the developers wanted to make was that Temen-ni-gru WAS somehow that tall, OR that the friction burn section of the scene takes place in a vastly smaller amount of time than it seems to (which there is evidence for, going by the way, as you noted, we see the bullet travel).
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Figuring out the height of Temen-ni-gru compared to other objects, though, would give a more accurate gauge of the length of time the scene would have to be to avoid Dante hitting the ground at mach speeds.
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I’m currently working on the scene with the Abyss enemies, also (actually I STARTED there and got sidetracked). For them, I did a bit more estimating. Using a baseball bat as an analogue to the scythes, the fastest a human can swing is about 100mph, as far as I could find.
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In the opening of the fight in
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-h_OOk93Bk
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It takes the Abyss enemies on the ground about 12 seconds to ALMOST reach Vergil with their weapons, swinging in an arc. Now the thing is, an arc is a MUCH greater distance than a straight line, buuut I find myself a bit intimidated by the formula for determining an arc’s length. Still, going to attempt it.
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So, in simple terms – let us assume each Abyss is about 7 feet tall. Their weapons appear about a foot shorter than they are (as they walk hunched over). The ones I’m using grip the weapon so that about a third of it juts above their uppermost hands – 2.3 feet.
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Said enemies then take full swings at Vergil. That gives us a point a to point b distance of 4.6 feet. Using the formula to determine an arc (found here, www.mathopenref.com/arclength.html ), that means they’re moving the points of their weapons about 7 feet.
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As 100mph is 146.7 feet per second, rounding up to 147, 7 divided by 147 = .05 (again, rounding up).
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So it SHOULD take a peak human roughly one five hundredth of a second to swing a weapon in an arc like that, roughly speaking. 12 divided by .05 means the Abyss in the scene are shown moving 240 times slower than reality.
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That also means Vergil has .05 seconds to perceive and react to every one of them the way he does (100 times faster than Luke Skywalker reacts to the little training droid in A New Hope, just to cross-geek a little). Here is where my math stops though, as it’s not really possible to tell how FAR Vergil moves, and thus how fast he’s actually going.
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But it’s worth noting that (like Dante in the opening cinematic of DMC4), Vergil doesn’t even twitch until the weapons have nearly *reached* him. All of his movement in that scene takes place in the space of about 1 to 2 *hundredths* of a second.
Derp. 10 times faster for Luke and the training droid.*
@Chuck
As to the distance thing, it’s there because without knowing how FAR Dante moves (his arms to adjust to the angle Lady is firing, in this case), you don’t actually know how fast Dante’s moving. You have to work from a baseline speed, which I pointed out in the Dante vs Kharn thread, and again above.
@Chuck
And quadruple posting, but only because I’m catching where part of this issue is coming from.
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First I was misreading one of your arguments. I thought you meant multiply BY 1.5 for the tower scene, which is VASTLY too fast. 1.1 as a *ratio* is much more accurate (multiplying by .90-odd gives the correct speed in my above example).
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Second, the examples you’re citing are working of much looser estimates than even the ones I’m working with. Again referencing the tower dive, it makes VERY little sense to start from (if I’m reading the argument right) how slowed down Rebellion *appears* to be, instead of what the actual necessary speeds would be.
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The same problem appears in the Abyss scene with Vergil – you’ll note by starting from a more solid estimation, the number you get (even incomplete, since we can’t really gauge how far Vergil moves) is much smaller.
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Regarding that same scene, another more solid estimate. Vergil strikes the scythe coming in at his sword-arm first. He lifts his hand to his head level to do it, which is about three feet. So he moves 3 feet in .02 seconds. 3 divided by .02 = 150, X 60 = 9,000 feet per minute, X 60 = 540,000 feet per hour, divided by 5280 = 102 miles per hour.
However, that’s just for the initial movement. It can at the least be tripled to account for the two other scythes he knocks out of the way, plus an indeterminate greater multiplier for the full draw-cut he uses on the one above him. However, that’s still far, far far away from 8373.2 mph, which is about what Mach 11 would be at sea level.
Tower talk.
Yeah, kinda need to see the math on how he’s apparently moving 1.01x its speed. Can’t see a reason to times by 0.9.
There is absolutely no way an argument can be formed from the height. (And he got the miles/second wrong there);
10 seconds at Mach 7 = 23,820m
60 seconds at free fall = 3,600m
= Half of the tower is 27,420m
= Total height is 54, 840m
And the whole height talk, as I already said, can be disregarded as its “6. Kinda obvious the scene wasnt in real time” from the visible tower beside him and he himself appearing at normal running speed etc. Just another slow-mo, as he agrees to- “the friction burn section of the scene takes place in a vastly smaller amount of time than it seems to”.
Either its at the level I said or we’re looking at a 55km tower reaching into the mesosphere or having hypersonic friction appearing at sub-sonic speed. Both impossible.
And what? I just showed the calc giving 1.645x, and no fake numbers or anything pulled out of the air.
quote:
Vergil speed.
First I wanna correct a few things, also ya may want us use the more accurate metric system.
The bat/strike speed is 45m/s. The appeared 2m swing in 12s is 0.166666667m/s. This means the Abyss are slowed down by 270x.
The time is actually 14 seconds, not 12, for the longest time in the particular segment you’re thinking of. Finally it doesn’t make a regular circular arc like you used. It makes an overhead hammer motion, thats 1.2-1.3m on 6ft tall people (just tested). 7ft / 6ft = 1.16666667, a 7ft’s arc would be 1.16666667x that of 6ft. 1.2-1.3 * 1.16666667 = 1.4-1.51m. Using 1.5m as the high average.
So that’s 1.5m / 14s = 0.107142857m/s
45 / 0.107142857 = 420
That means the scene was moving at 1/420th its normal speed using the same thing you did but with the right time of 14s and right arc of 1.5m. Note: The time is what it is, and if the distance is to be disputed it wont get much higher than that as its limit, as per your regular circular arc, is 2m. And even a full 2m with 14s gives 315x.
Your math stops at a crucial yet simple part;
Low human punch; 7m/s.
Average human; 9-10m/s.
Average pro punch; 11-12 m/s.
Peak human punch; 14-16 m/s.
[Various sources]
Vergil’s movements we’re above average human and appeared in the pro range. As its difficult to say how fast in the pro or peak range he was going, a lowball figure at 10m/s, basically average human speed, is to be used.
We know that everything in that scene was moving at 1/420th its /real/ speed. The Abyss’ 0.107m/s speed was really 420x faster, 45m/s. And just like them Vergil’s 10m/s speed was really 420x faster, 4,200m/s.
That’s Mach 12.343 with the revisited figures. In fact, with your own 270x his speed would be at Mach 8.
Really want to know what your view on ‘solid’ is. Because all the data I got is in-game and easy to get hold of. That and my method is simple and clear cut; anything in that scene was happening X amount faster then the slow-mo. I’m saying the Abyss and Vergil were /both/ moving X times faster normally. You’re saying that the Abyss are moving X times faster while Vergil is only moving 13.7 times faster normally [137m/s real / 10m/s appeared]. Its highly faulty unless one party is unaffected by time..
dante for the fp award
STTGL crushes Dante. (trollface)
Aaand working on a response, but have pressing concerns tonight. Should have it up in a few hours!
@Pyre
While you’re at it, care to check out Dante vs Kratos. Dante has 13 votes already and could do with more votes to make it first in line for the next FPA <=]
Alright, so lessee.
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First: I misremembered my math TWICE, for the Savior punch. Scaled down for kneeling and dying as it struck, it comes in at around 225 tons of pounds-force per square inch. Which is an absolutely ludicrous number, I’m aware. The actual proper number is probably lesser, since my methods of arriving at it were not the most scientific, but one way or the other it’s still an insane amount of instantaneous force applied to one place, that Dante blocks (even though I maintain the viewpoint that, had the Savior NOT been defeated just then, it would have hammered him right into the ground).
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Second. The scene with Vergil and the Abyss enemies. So, we already know, according to all possible sense, that it’s not Mach 11 or anywhere close. But I like precision! Or being as close to it as one can get. And my original estimate of the scene was just that, an estimate – I did the same thing the people coming up with stupidly-large numbers were doing, just in the opposite direction (specifically, I assumed the weapons would take .02 seconds to reach Vergil by the time he moved, without having anything solid to base that on).
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Going over the scene again, I paused and looked closer at how far the scythes are from Vergil when he starts to move. While it’s impossible to get an exact number, thanks to camera angles, it’s fairly safe to say that Vergil begins his motion when most of the blades are about a foot from him.
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Again, assuming peak human capability, that’s about 100mph. Or 147 feet per second (100 X 5280 = 528000 divided by 60 = 8800 divided by 60 = 146.6 infinite recursion)
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So, if the weapons are moving at 147 feet per second, and Vergil doesn’t react until each blade is a foot from him, that means he has .007 seconds to make, at least, the three parries we see in the scene before his draw-cut. 7 thousandths of a second.
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Of course, we also need to know how far he moves to know how fast he’s moving. Here, again, we unfortunately have to estimate. Vergil comes in, like his brother, at about 6’2”. Though his torso and head would account for a bit less than half his height, his first motion moves his sword from below his waist to his head. So we can safely round off to three feet for the very first parry (If someone wants to get a more exact number, by all means PLEASE do so. I don’t have ready access to the height chart right now).
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Vergil swings his arm back once, then forward, then back again. Unfortunately I cannot tell whether or not he turns his body during this time (the soon-to-be-corpses are in the way), but given the placement of the enemies it is possible he does not, so that’s the measurement I’ll be going with. This means three feet for the first parry, three feet again for the second, and three feet a last time for the third. 9 feet of arm movement in .007 seconds. This is inaccurate, but just for fun, let’s assume the draw-cut was executed within the same span of time, which brings us up to 15 feet of movement (tacking on another 6) in that span of time.
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So, 15/ .007, Fifteen divided by seven thousandths of a second. 2142 feet per second, 12,8571 feet per minute, 7,714,285 feet per hour. Divided by 5280, 1461 miles per hour. Mach 2, almost precisely.
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And that’s WITH the extra 6 feet of movement for the draw-cut added in. There’s actually a gap between those first motions and when he executes that move that means that wouldn’t be valid, but I’m including it to make a point.
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@Chuck
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The problem with your math, now that you take the time to do it out, is that you still can’t just assume how fast things in the scene are moving. We could assume Vergil is moving at any speed we want, and go from there, but that’s not valid. Also, provided the “m” in your “m/s” is meters, I’m still getting different numbers than you (in this case, higher) when converting to feet.
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But as I said, it’s invalid anyway. We don’t get to just assume “Vergil’s moving this speed because it looks like a human of a certain fitness level does this.” It’s faulty math, and while it might be viable in a situation where there are no other measures, such measures exist here, giving us a nearly exact (albeit minimum) speed he’d HAVE to move to execute what he does in the scene. Even working off of estimated distances, that’s more accurate.
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Also, a swing backward with an arm is a completely different motion from a punch, and depending on the type of punch you mean (straight, cross, jab?) is much slower. Vergil makes only one motion that could be considered “punch-like” in the entire sequence (the second parry), with every other motion being not only distinctly different, but taking significantly longer than a punch would. So that argument is doubly invalid. Triply if one factors in his holding an odachi that should weigh in the area of 4 pounds at least, and taking more time than an average human moving as fast as possible would to execute the same motion.
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And that’s the only part of the sequence where Vergil is shown moving appreciably faster than the Abyss’ while they are in slow-motion. All other times Vergil’s movements are slowed down as well, which rather handily negates any such argument about speed from those parts of the fight.
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Unless, say, King Leonidas of the mighty Spartan 300 is also a hypersonic character. Now, the tower scene.
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This one is weirder, as we both concur the tower cannot possibly be as tall as it would need to be in order to accommodate ANY of the possible speeds. But there is a very simple point to be made here.
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While we have evidence that Dante can increase the *power* of his bullets, we have no definitive evidence he can increase their *speed*. This is important because the fastest an .45 ACP round can travel is 2300 feet per second. Or 1568 miles per hour.
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Why is this relevant? Well, because it means that 1568 mph is the most speed the bullet could add, on its own, to the speed Rebellion was moving at. Of course that’s only if Dante was stationary when firing the gun: we know obviously that he was moving. And Dante’s motion would add to the speed of the bullet, of course.
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But therein lies the problem. If friction burn starts at Mach 6, then Dante has to be moving at, at MOST, 4296 miles per hour, just beneath it. 4296+1568 is 5865.2. Mach 8, well beneath the threshold you’re talking about for the scene of 7162 miles per hour. And the bullet can only add speed that the sword doesn’t already have.
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Which means if Rebellion was stationary, it would have to be shot at around 7162 miles per hour to hit Mach 10. But Rebellion is MOVING in the scene. So if Dante is bound to 4296 miles per hour, and the maximum the bullet can be traveling is 5865.2, then Rebellion would have to be moving at 1297 miles per hour before Dante shoots it. Now, while the scene is obviously slowed down by an indeterminate amount, it seems patently unlikely Dante accelerates to over 3 times the speed of the sword AFTER throwing it, but BEFORE shooting it without catching up to it first (especially since, even though the visuals in the scene are suspect, we clearly see there is a significant distance between Dante and the sword).
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And that’s the MOST likely scenario. The other one is that the sword is traveling at a faster speed, perhaps only below the 7162 mph threshold by the speed of the bullet. But that’s 5594 miles per hour. If Dante’s moving below Mach 6, and he shoots it then, the most speed the bullet can add is 91 miles per hour. Relativity and all. So that variant is completely impossible.
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Of course, that leaves the final option for a fixed bullet speed, that Dante is moving at a speed equivalent to the sword when he shoots it, meaning the bullet is free to add exactly its speed to the blade. But for that to be possible, the sword and Dante have to be zipping along at 5594 miles per hour. Which is about Mach 7. So unless an object with a surface area about 1.8 meters high and .6 meters wide can move at mach 7 without triggering friction burn, no, not so much.
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Unless of course Dante can accelerate the speed of his bullets (which we have no definitive evidence for). In which case, even assuming Rebellion was moving at just a single mile per hour beneath Mach 10 and Dante was moving at the same under Mach 6, Dante would have to be able to supernaturally add another 1477 miles per hour to the speed of his bullets to make the scene the speed you say it is.
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So either Dante has to be able to accelerate to 3 times the speed of his own thrown weapon before shooting it, but somehow not catch up with it first, then another 1.6 times to catch up with the blade at all, or he has to be moving at well over the speed friction burn starts. Or he has to be able to add nearly 1500 miles per hour to the speed of his bullets.
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Given the entirety of the franchise has no examples of either of the twins being that fast (including, as I pointed out above, the scene with Vergil), And we have no definitive evidence Dante can increase the speed of the bullets his guns fire, I’m rather inclined to say no, the scene is not happening at that speed.
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As it relates to Sephiroth though, it’s almost elementary either way. While Dante is definitely weaker than him as far as baseline striking strength, we know he can scale that up to match him, even exceed him, for at least a short time. Further, while Dante has no defense against (and even a demonstrated weakness to some types of) magical assault, a reflex speed in the hypersonic range will allow him to get out of the way of all but the widest area-of-effect spells with relative ease.
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(Incidentally, we’ve been using the wrong terms. Mach 5 and above is hypersonic. Mach 10+ is high-hypersonic. I prefer to say ‘ultrasonic’, because it sounds cooler.)
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Further, while Sephiroth might be able to match up to Dante more closely speed-wise thanks to this new information (I say might as I haven’t examined the referenced scene with Zach, nor the estimations of bullet speed on those rifles, etc), he’s still limited by casting times. Advent Children showed that the casting time for spells in real-time is about the same as the time they take to cast in gameplay, on average. If we use only Cloud as an example, Dante won’t have much trouble dodging the direct-assault spells, and he can limit damage from area-of-effect magic (Firaga, Thundaga, Blizzaga, etc) through use of his defensive aura/energy/powers/ whatever you want to call that neat mage armor effect he creates, and getting the holy hell out of the way.
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Which just leaves the instant-kill spells. Frog, Stone, etc. Now, while Dante again has no evidenced defense against these, the casting time alone should give him opportunity to get out of the way so long as he can propel himself in some way (which is much easier if we account for Dante with full access to his styles, much harder if he’s without them). There is also an argument to be made for any innate resistance Dante would have to such magic, much the way characters in Final Fantasy possess a Magic Defense stat. Given that Dante is consistently displayed to be on par with or above, say, Cloud in Advent Children, his having a comparable defense would not be amiss. But that’s not an argument I’ll be pushing just now.
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Sephiroth’s advantage in melee (overwhelming strength compared to Dante’s) vanishes after one or two strikes at most. And these are strikes Dante can easily survive, thanks ironically to the precision Sephiroth cuts with – as limbs are unlikely to be coming off, Dante’s instantaneous healing will let him get back up from most any assault Sephiroth can hit him with, though it might leave him hurting. And once Dante scales up to match Sephiroth, or even exceed him, then he can pretty much handily take an advantage in the next melee exchange if not outright win the fight there (though that requires his scaling up to exceed Sephiroth by a little. Only a little, thanks to Dante’s insane precision). While we’ve seen little evidence that Dante can keep up this level of power for extended periods outside very specific circumstances, he really shouldn’t need to in order to get a win at close range.
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So with Dante pretty much having the melee market cornered, that leaves Sephiroth’s ranged advantage. While he can deflect or dodge most assaults from Dante, lead falling like supersonic rain presents a problem if he has nowhere to go. Of course, the same can be said of a spell like Stone for Dante. Given Sephiroth’s massively superior air maneuverability, he can also choose to keep the fight at range with relative ease, though Dante might be able to keep him from readily casting anything (Including the troublesome Reflect spell) with steady streams of gunfire, and has the chance to force things back onto his own terms via well-placed jumping and striking. Which is good for him, since even leaving the basic instant-win spells aside, attacks like Heartless Angel or even Pale Horse (especially Pale Horse) would utterly ruin his day (If we assume Heartless Angel would strike the reserves that power Dante’s healing, not his physical integrity itself).
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I’m kind of coming back around to the point I made ages and ages ago, but I may as well make it again: While Sephiroth possesses a distinct mobility and ranged advantage, Dante’s superior strength and reflexes grant him a massive advantage in melee once he employs them, and his ability to put out a number of shots per second that can rival or put to shame automatic weapons fire, on top of the precision he can aim those shots with, leaves him with the ability to keep Sephiroth distracted, or at the least having to move while trying to employ any powers he may have. Add onto this Dante’s at-the-very-very-very-least Mach 3 reaction time (for the scene in DMC3 wherein he shoots down Lady’s bullets. I can toss up calculations and a video if people need), and the likelihood of his getting hit by any spell that doesn’t actually track and go off ON a target is much closer to zero.
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Dante possesses Drive in answer to Sephiroth’s blade-beam attack, provided again he can’t just get out of the way. And this whole argument isn’t even taking Devil Trigger into account, where even if we figure in the flightless one from DMC4, that still does a great deal to minimize Dante’s disadvantage in the air. At full strength (assuming ONLY what was displayed in the Savior fight, since the fight with Abigor at the end of the anime was one of those unique circumstances), Dante ought to be able to execute a win in just a couple blows, hammering Sephiroth into the ground or some other structure, and then carving him up, or just letting himself get gutted and then closing distance before Sephiroth can retrieve his blade
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That last example remains viable even if Dante CAN’T scale to Sephiroth’s strength (Possible, given that the power he displays in the Abigor scene isn’t something he can normally summon up, by all evidence). I would hesitate to say he even needs it, but Dance Macabre will fill in nicely for Omnislash here, even.
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If you want to parse it down to the most basic sense. Sephiroth holds an advantage in baseline striking strength, aerial mobility, and instant-win moves. Dante can nullify or turn the strength advantage to himself, has faster reflexes (whichever set of calculations you use), superior staying power thanks to his regenerative abilities, and an endless supply of distracting lead that he can use to help minimize the threat of magical assault. Even Sephiroth’s oft-debated telekinetic powers can be countered by the repeatedly displayed ‘burst’ ability Dante uses, variants of which appear anywhere from his stopping the bike Trish threw at him in DMC1 to the defensive aura he employed in the Mundus cutscene in the same game, to the supremely lethal version he had in DMC3. It looks very much like in most circumstances, Dante wins.
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@Stealth Ranger
Mmmaaaaybe. I already didn’t want to wander back into this thread because I knew how it would consume my time, and here it’s gone and done just that.
Im not doing the math a friend of mines is
Dammit man, use metric..
His whole reply, while I commend his effort, unnecessary to a point where he ‘s missing and can be countered by a simple point; the speed in the scene itself disagrees with his figures. In other words his figures do not match the time dilation. Here’s why:
He said that Vergil is Ma2 and the Abyss are at 45m/s. According to him Vergil is moving 15x faster than them. Therefore he was 15x faster than them in that scene.
Problem. He wasn’t; If the Abyss are really moving at 45m/s and in that scene it takes them 14 seconds to cover 1.5m, they appear to be moving at 0.107m/s. If Vergil was 15x faster, in that scene he would appear to be moving at 1.6m/s. And as I said, he wasn’t. Even by the speed he himself gave Vergil, which is wrong, he would be appearing to be 37x faster than the Abyss. Basically, his own method contradicts itself. For this calc to be right the figures must be equal to the actual scene.
First mistake is Vergil’s appeared speed that he got 4m/s for [15 ft in slightly over a second]. That’s half the speed of an unfit humans punch.. Me assuming that Vergil’s attacking as fast as an average human is far safer than you suggesting he looked as fast as a child with a broken arm. Your problem comes from the fact that you used his whole movement to get his speed, which includes each time he pauses to change direction. Highly faulty.
As you really want concrete figures, here ya go:
His second movement has his arm going from his side, to making a hook-like attack while turning around and putting his hand back at his side. For someone of his size (my size) that’s a 2.5m movement that his hand travels. Now I went ahead and got this scene down frame-by-frame [30fps. 1 frame = 0.0333 seconds] and it takes 7 frames for him to do this movement, that’s 0.233 seconds.
2.5m / 0.233s = 10.73m/s.
For accuracy I got the speed for a single frame, which is him moving the length of his elbow to hand which is around 40cm.
0.4m/ 0.0333s = 12m/s
So Vergil’s appeared speed in that scene is at least 10m/s.
This is what we now know about the time dilation in this scene:
1. The Abyss were moving at 0.107m/s
2. Vergil was moving at 10m/s
Meaning that Vergil was moving 93.458x faster than the Abyss in that scene. So if Vergil is moving that much faster than the Abyss, and the Abyss move at 45m/s, how fast is Vergil?
And unlike his method, my one is explicitly supported by the speed we get from the actual scene.
Oh, and that King Leonidas point was a very.. very poor comparison as he’s moving at the same slow-mo speed as everyone else.
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First of all, “6. Kinda obvious the scene wasnt in real time” Did you even read this? The thing you agreed to? Not being in real time means calcing from the Tower’s height can’t be done, not that it can’t be done at all…
And he’s wrong about his bullet speed. His bullets are faster than Nero’s Blue Rose, given how he can shoot his bullets out of mid-air, which is based on a upgraded S&W M500. M500 can be at 630m/s. Nero’s is likely about that, with Dante’s being above that.
And again, while I commend on his effort here, its all countered by a simple point. At that simple point is this; “Dante can increase the *power* of his bullets.”
Relevance of this? Take baseball. Peak human arm movement speed 16m/s, that from a pro boxer so you know no other human can compete in arm speed without a bat. So a pitcher throws the ball at his peak arm speed, yet the ball is moving at 40m/s. Thats because of the kinetic energy the pitcher transfers into the ball when throwing it.
And that’s the important factor. If Dante can increase the power by adding energy, the kinetic energy of the bullets can launch the sword to great speeds.
Dante’s shots are at 8,500 Joules at base from their speed, but what can it be if Dante chooses? Well in DMC4 he was able to destroy two high-ranking demons with a single shot. But for a more solid numbers theres the feat from DMC2. With two shots Dante knocked Arius into a wall where 20 tons of the rock [measured from Arius' height] wall was knocked back at around 10m/s [again from Arius' height]. Dante can increase the force of his bullets by a large degree. His bullet can easily have a massive knockback.
You believe that his /normal/ bullet can knock the sword at a fast pace, how fast do you think a /demon powered/ shot could make it go?
Also:
“Rebellion length = 1.65m
Rebellion width= 0.38m
[Based on its height to Dante, guard from the sword length]
During the scene Rebellion appeared to be moving at 2.357m/s
[Based on the tower below covering the swords length in 0.7seconds, 1.65m / 0.7s]
When the sword appears stationary Dante is moving at 1.52m/s
[Based on Dante's movement. Covered 3.04m, 8 handle widths, in 2s]
..Making Dante’s apparent speed at 3.877m/s
[Dante moves 1.52m/s faster that the the 2.357m/s sword]
Meaning Dante was moving 1.645x Rebellion’s speed when catching up to it.”
Posting again because I don’t think he read or grasped this. Proves that Dante was running over 1.5x Rebellion’s speed, and Rebellion was already at Mach 7.
And like I already said, its the min speed without considering aerodynamics.
Dante wins.
Hmm. While I still disagree firmly with the speed calcs, I can muster no argument to the evidence given at this time (knew I should have jumped on gauging things on individual movements faster).
Ah. With one correction – the two powerful demons Dante killed in DMC4 (Berial and Echidna) are killed after they are both at the end of their respective lifelines – much the same way Dante can’t be put down until one exhausts whatever reserve it is that powers his healing, both of those demons had been beaten into submission BEFORE the final shot.
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He followed it with a different example, so again, no argument about that one for the moment. Just heading off the “Dante’s bullets insta-kill powerful demons” argument others have tried to make.
“He followed it with a different example, so again, no argument about that one for the moment”
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Dante’s bullets did juggle a demon the size of and elephant in the anime. And also in Dmc 3 Dante did power down his bullet so that it wouldn’t penetrate the pool table ball he shot at
@Pyre
Oh the debates already over. We just need another vote for Dante over there
@Pyre
Don’t worry. Dante already got the FP Award over Kratos
When can Dante get his award? Lol
@Stealth
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Conceded. I just tend to be anal about overscaling characters because it crops up other times, and you get things like people claiming Sith can annihilate moons with their brains when it’s left unchecked.
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Also, WHOO!
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@Chuck
That’s one reason (along with real life consuming me for months) I didn’t bother trying to argue the point about the bullet accelerating Rebellion that much. Even though impact normally would not transfer motion that well, Dante’s shots are decoupled from the normal rules governing speed and mass.
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Because seriously. A .45 caliber bullet can knock something of at least 5.5 tons up into the air a little more with each one that hits, BEFORE there are any sparkly charging effects? God damn.
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So, a last note for this one from me I suppose. Looking back over everything, Dante starts out SEVERELY outclassed in the strength category. Point of fact I’m not sure he can fully catch up to Sephiroth in that regard even WITH Devil Trigger. And while he can go much faster than his opponent for a few moments at a time, Sephiroth fights from an effective distance of 6 and a half feet (and has the various instant-win magical attacks at his disposal), which evens that field somewhat.
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But in the end, it’s still entirely possible for Dante to lock things up by just willingly taking a hit, and closing distance before Sephiroth can react. And while I normally hate this argument, we KNOW Sephiroth prefers to open combat with melee. So yeah, Dante for the FP award.
Hat about wraps it up, Dante for the fp award
But one thing, how is seph strong than Dante?
Is there somebody who thinks Sephiroth stands a chance, I must say that I own AC and played the game, and let me tell you that Dante outclasses that mama’s boy in every way you can imagine with the exception of being a looser.
“But one thing, how is seph strong than Dante?”
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I think he means in explosive striking power rather than lifting strength.
“I think he means in explosive striking power rather than lifting strength.”
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This. Sephiroth can level skyscrapers with his strength, which Dante hasn’t shown said level of striking strength
I’m still a little hazy on the details. Can Sephiroth use his magic?
Im not sure, he should be able to given he doesn’t need materia to use magic after his time in the lifestream, although the number of Jenova cells decrease every time Sephiroth comes back and all…
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Still, Im not seeing why he doesn’t get it
Or why he can’t use his telekinesis on Dante ftm
“I think he means in explosive striking power rather than lifting strength.”
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But doesn’t his lifting strength transfer into his striking strength?
“Or why he can’t use his telekinesis on Dante ftm”
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I don’t see why he can’t.
“I don’t see why he can’t.”
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Thats basically what i’ve been saying for quite a while
“I don’t see why he can’t.”
cuz dante r cool guy hez mach 15 and killz demonz and dosnt affraid of anything
“But doesn’t his lifting strength transfer into his striking strength?”
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Apparently not according to others and going by feats, Dante doesn’t usually hit with the same explosive strength as Sephiroth though he is overall physically stronger.
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@Stealth & Sorrow
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Dante can overwhelm him with his speed to stop him from doing so considering he’d have a higher speed or thought than Sephy to let him pull off a move before Sephiroth can. Not sure if I’m underestimating Sephy’s on speed and reactions however.
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If Sephiroth did pull it off, Dante’d be dead.
“A good punch doesn’t rely on just the power of the muscle, but greatly on the speed of the punch as well. Whether a man can punch well and/or lift a lot is entirely up to the man, not determined by training but by what training he seeks. A body builder who presses several hundred pounds can just as easily take up a decent martial art and learn to punch fast. The same for the other way around. Naturally, though, if a man only seeks to punch fast or only seeks to lift a lot, he’s limiting himself mentally, but he’s not incapable of learning the other. As well, it’s unwise to say “because this dude does this, he probably can’t do that”. A man you don’t know, as far as you know, could be capable of anything.
In any case, what’s more impressive? Who you can hurt is much more impressive than what you can lift. Look at Flash. He can’t lift much more than a normal guy. But the IMP can level Superman. That’s much more impressive than benching a billion tons. That said, a guy that can bench a billion tons can probably effectively slug Superman anyway.
This kind of reminds me of the phrase about wealth. “The gratification of wealth is not found in mere possession or in lavish expenditure, but in its wise application.”
The same could be said for strength.” – some guy on KMC forums
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And with that said I do believe dante can transfer his lifting strength into his striking strength
“And with that said I do believe dante can transfer his lifting strength into his striking strength”Trillion stab?
“cuz dante r cool guy hez mach 15 and killz demonz and dosnt affraid of anything”
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Best Dantard imitation. /award
I got AC and there isn’t a good feat for Sephiroth, all I see is him fighting as a speed that I the viewer can see, while in Dante’s case, I can’t understand what the hell is going on.
Without a doubt I say Dante is faster than Sephiroth, I just can’t see (in my experience and knowledge of both characters) Sephiroth landing a hit on Dante who easily outclasses Cloud in everyday.
Didn’t you all see the movie, Cloud gets hurt because of a stab from Sephiroth, he gets saved in the first fight when he got shot in the head do to the metal peace between his goggles and lastly he got shot in the back and almost died.
Tell me now, did Dante ever shown such a ridicules level of wimp like this before?
The answer is no, he moves for what I have seen at least 6 times the speed of Sephiroth.
“Dante can overwhelm him with his speed to stop him from doing so”
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Wasn’t there something about suppressive fire from E&I stopping him/suppressing him from doing so earlier in this thread?
Hah, the description said Dante has firepower on his side, bet Admin doesn’t know Dante doesn’t even need guns to throw Sephiroth around like a rag doll.
“The answer is no, he moves for what I have seen at least 6 times the speed of Sephiroth”
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more like 12 times
““6 times the speed of Sephiroth”
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more like 12 times”
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Did, Sephiroth just become of measurement of speed?
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Anyway, assuming Seph manages to pull out some magic. What kind of damage could Dante be in for?
depends on what Sephiroth you want to go with, do you wan’t to go with AC Sephiroth, those guys don’t use magic, Sephiroth is more of a sword fighter and magic would be his last resort (unless you think he can cast a supernova that doesn’t destroy the earth for some illogical and unexplained reason), Dante has taken many tough hits, and the movie AC (as it’s more canon than the game) a bullet wound is considered lethal, like I mentioned, a shot to the head is enough to end anybody in the final fantasy movie, you don’t see them getting hit in AC like in the game, and wen they do, the fights over.
“Anyway, assuming Seph manages to pull out some magic. What kind of damage could Dante be in for?”
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Depends on the magic. Typical elemental stuff can do some decent damage but nothing Dante can’t heal from. The more potent stuff like Pale Horse or Break and Dante’s instant-KOed from petrification or polymorph.
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Sephy also has TK that could net him the win if he can pull it off.
Given Sephiroth doesn’t need materia to use magic after his time in the lifestream its also theoretically possible he could use a stop or a slow on Dante
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Or possibly the comet magic even (I do not mean the Black Materia)
Slow is unquantifiable but stop would give Sephiroth the win if he pulled it off.
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Comet is kinda hard though since we don’t know if it hits with as much force as an actual celestial object.
“Slow is unquantifiable”
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And then theres Quicksilver which could save Dante from that as was discussed in Link and Cloud vs Kratos and Dante IIRC
I don’t think that should be use, those magics are more like game mechanics, canonically they never use them as shown in the movies, instead they rather go more into sword fights.
Petrification doesn’t work on Dante, he has shown the ability to brake free from it in the game and those magics that are instant KO are all game mechanics, you don’t see them casting Curaga while in the movie or phoenix down.
And if you wan’t to go by that then D ante also has his set of FF style of magics for example Quicksilver who would represent haste, and lets not forget doppelganger who creates an exact copy of Dante, also for the TK, that I never seen in AC, and
word of god says sephy was holding back alot in ac.
I don’t think that should be use, those magics are more like game mechanics, canonically they never use them as shown in the movies, instead they rather go more into sword fights.
Petrification doesn’t work on Dante, he has shown the ability to brake free from it in the game and those magics that are instant KO are all game mechanics, you don’t see them casting Curaga while in the movie or phoenix down.
And if you wan’t to go by that then D ante also has his set of FF style of magics for example Quicksilver who would represent haste, and lets not forget doppelganger who creates an exact copy of Dante, also for the TK, that I never seen in AC, I also don’t think it can work against Dante, he has a lot of force inside him and energy that he can pulse from his body and can hit Sephiroth in order to set free or use his Doppelganger to hit Sephiroth.
Besides Dante having the upper hand in speed, in fire power and sword fighting, he also has a lot of powers he can pull out to give Sephiroth a harder time.
Don’t know why a lot of people think Dante is only Ebony and Ivory + Rebellion and DT.
May i ask who is sepiroth it will atleast help me with the rightful winner
WT hell, I how did half my comment got posted?
My apologies, but yeah going by his fullest is actually seph doing some magic there and blowing this up and that, but still Dante has a lot of speed and power behind him against seph.
“May i ask who is sepiroth ”
are you seriouse?
“May i ask who is sepiroth”
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I don’t even….
Even if I told you who he is, it will take you some time catching up on his feats.
Have you ever played any Final Fantasy game?
“I don’t think that should be use, those magics are more like game mechanics, canonically they never use them as shown in the movies, instead they rather go more into sword fights.”
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Materia were shown to have power in AC going by the way Kadaj was capable of summoning Bahamut SIN and they have descriptions that state what they’re capable of doing so why would or rather should we ignore them?
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“Petrification doesn’t work on Dante, he has shown the ability to brake free from it in the game and those magics that are instant KO are all game mechanics, you don’t see them casting Curaga while in the movie or phoenix down.”
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When has Dante ever been petrified? But in FFVII, the source canon, they are used and abilities within the game. AC just shows materia is alot easier to use than long casting times.
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“also for the TK, that I never seen in AC, I also don’t think it can work against Dante, he has a lot of force inside him and energy that he can pulse from his body and can hit Sephiroth in order to set free or use his Doppelganger to hit Sephiroth.”
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Sephiroth brought down the top of the Shinra building by just waving his arms which implies TK. Also, he has used it before in FFVII which is the source canon of all abilities. None of what you listed as defense for Dante against TK would even work and the Doppelganger doesn’t act independently, it does as Dante does so if he’s caught and stuck, Doppie is too.
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“Besides Dante having the upper hand in speed, in fire power and sword fighting, he also has a lot of powers he can pull out to give Sephiroth a harder time.”
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Aside from Devil Trigger, Quicksilver and Doppelganger, Dante doesn’t have nearly as many powers as Sephiroth.
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“Don’t know why a lot of people think Dante is only Ebony and Ivory + Rebellion and DT.”
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Because those are his standard weapons in the case of E&I and Rebellion while DT is his natural power.
dante speedblitz
thread/
” None of what you listed as defense for Dante against TK would even work and the Doppelganger doesn’t act independently, it does as Dante does so if he’s caught and stuck, Doppie is too.”
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Doppleganger can be controlled to act in a different matter other then copying moves
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbkfzlJjVAU
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Also didn’t Dante show a bit of tk against that bike that was about to fall on him?
“Also didn’t Dante show a bit of tk against that bike that was about to fall on him?”
Yea he did, but Nobody belives that, I dont know way.
“different matter”
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different manner
“way”
I meant Why, sorry for the second post.
Dante manages to win this match against Seph.
“Petrification doesn’t work on Dante, he has shown the ability to brake free from it in the game and those magics that are instant KO are all game mechanics, you don’t see them casting Curaga while in the movie or phoenix down.”
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How the hell is a spell that is designed to kill just a game mechanic? The fuck is wrong with you?
“Dante manages to win this match against Seph”
Yea he did, but Soldier’s Shadow whants to prove them wrong.
dante resisted TK
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“You’re a weakling and a nuisance” Ducan snarled. He pushed the empty air in front of him and Berly felt a violent impact in the pit of her stomach. the invincible force sent her flying several meters nacross the cliff. Ducas was her physcal inferior but his mental power was beyond Beryl’s understanding.Nevertheless he realized that ducas the rat was somewhere inside that body . He somehow had the raw power for a fight but not the experience or skill. “Your back is open ” she shouted out” by the time Ducas realized what was happening. dante had already plowed rebellion from chest to hip the blade attacked with blistering speed. Ducas Doubled over “Coward cutting me from behind” “its actually an honor to be called a coward by a demon” dante pointed out. His pathetic body body was no longer mortal, rebellion’s incision revealed a man that had become overrun with supernatural influence. He pulsed out an invincible shockwave. “that possession trick would’nt have worked on me even as child” dante sneered he flicked rebellion once more and casually lopped of ducas’s head
pg 104 dmc2 the novel
“Doppleganger can be controlled to act in a different matter other then copying moves”
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That’s gameplay. In the cutscene after Dante defeated it, it only seemed to copy his moves.
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@Chuck
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That quote makes no reference of anything TK hitting Dante in there.
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“Yea he did, but Soldier’s Shadow whants to prove them wrong.”
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No, I’m just clearing up libel.
“cuz dante r cool guy hez mach 15 and killz demonz and dosnt affraid of anything”
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LOL
““cuz dante r cool guy hez mach 15 and killz demonz and dosnt affraid of anything”
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LOL”
i no rite XD
Anyone else thinks Sephiroth is over hyped by everyone including the creator?
“That’s gameplay. In the cutscene after Dante defeated it, it only seemed to copy his moves.”
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It a move just like most of Dante’s other stuff. He even has the ability to have it lag. Not to mention that before that the shadow had shown the ability to move on it own rather then just copying him. So it does have some ability to act independently to what Dante is doing.
All that’s changed is that it works for Dante now. Like cerbrus, nevan, etc.
“i no rite XD”
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Exactly hahaha
It didn’t copied his moves they just fought equally as they are the same, later then you can see the doppelganger walking independently inside Dante’s body.
He also attacks by himself to live the enemy open for Dante to hit.
And another skill to show that the doppelganger is independent, a second player may plug in a controller into the second port and press start to take control of the doppelganger as a second Dante, in other words this translates as the doppelganger being independent.
So because Sephiroth is a boss he is immune to all curses and ill status magics?
And Dante being a main character must be effected by them?
I’m stating a game play mechanic.
Dante must have his fair resistant to curses ill status magic and 1-Hit KO magic the same way a boss would be in a Final Fantasy game.
“later then you can see the doppelganger walking independently inside Dante’s body.”
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks6NRFw3yh8
Around 3:05
“Dante must have his fair resistant to curses ill status magic and 1-Hit KO magic the same way a boss would be in a Final Fantasy game.”
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And you know this for a fact or are you just assuming he is?
Sephiroth is now town-level in attack potency… It’s in the OBD.
In Bizzaro and Safer form that is. His AC form is city-block.
It’s a game mechanic that they give to a boss so that he won’t be one shot, those skills only work against minor enemies not important battles or else one can take out Sephiroth in one hit.
Saying Sephiroth can finish this fight as soon as it starts just by casting a 1-hit kill magic that is engulfed in game mechanics is ridiculous.
Put Dante in the FF world an he will have those immunity status that Sephiroth has do to him being an uber character.
And besides we can’t just say magic works like it does basing from the game, Doom takes 10 turns to kill somebody, try to apply that in here.