Suggested by AHEM
I know these two characters aren’t as well known yet, but once the Wheel of time series gets turned into a movie, and Legend of the Seeker moves into further seasons, I think these two characters will have more exposure.
While Lanfear does possess great power to inflict some serious damage, you know I am gonna pick Nicci – and not just because she’s from the SoT series either. Nicci possesses both sides of the magic and is almost as powerful as Richard Rahl. That’s enough for me.
Who do you think would win?
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Nicci easy. just look at those…
bricks shes standing in front of…
anyway I dont know ho either of them are so I’m leaving now.
I’m not quite sure what to make of that…
I must confess ignorance of Nicci and her powers, but I’m going to go with Lanfear here. Lanfear is nearly as strong as Rand Al’Thor in terms of magical power. She’s got balefire, she can slice Nicci in half with a portal, cut her off from her magic, or do any number of things to easily kill Nicci (or do all of them at the same time) pretty much at the speed of thought.
What can Nicci do?
This . . .
match . . .
is . . .
EPIC!!!!
All right, clarification of both sides for those who haven’t read both series . . .
Nicci: Nicci is a sorceress, a former member of the religious society of female magic users known as the Sisters of the Light. Previously, during her career as a Sister, she joined the dark, hidden organization of sorceresses known as the Sisters of the Dark, who follow the demonic Keeper of the Underworld. Via several horrific rites and rituals, she stole the Han(lifeforce and magic) of a wizard, as well as the ability to command both Subtractive magic(making things vanish into nothingness) and the more common Additive(changing or creating thigns with magic). Nicci is around 180-200 years old, and has been utilizing and studying magic for most of her life.
With her combined abilities, Nicci is one of the most powerful magic-users in the Sword of Truth Saga. Only Sister Ulicia, Richard Rahl, and Nicholas the Slide are more powerful, though the Dreamwalker Jagang was able to control Nicci to an extent using his psychic abilities.
And onto her opponent . . .
Lanfear: Lanfear is the most powerful of the Forsaken(along with Ishamael), the most powerful channelers of the Wheel of Time. She draws her power from Saidar, the female half of the One Power. She officially gives her loyalty to the Dark One, the dark god of the Wheel of Time and the antithesis of the Creator. Her ultimate loyalty, however, is to herself and her own advancement; her ultimate plan was to overthrow the Dark One, and possibly the Creator as well, and rule as God-Empress of the world. She is the third highest authority on the Dark One’s side, after Shaidar Haran and Ishamael/Moridin.
In addition to Saidar, Lanfear can draw upon her link to the Dark One and channel the True Power, a much more dangerous and powerful ability only given to the Forsaken. Lanfear, at the height of her power, is among the most powerful beings in the Wheel of Time world, being able to go toe-to-toe with Rand al’Thor himself and survive.
These two present an interesting contrast to each other. Nicci is blond-haired, blue-eyed, and always wears black. Lanfear is black-haired, dark-eyed, and always wears white. Nicci is concerned only with helping others and furthering her cause. Lanfear is only concerned with gaining more power for herself and advacing her own goals.
As for their powers:
Nicci: Move, pick up, throw, and manipulate objects without touching them, make objects vanish into nothingness, create slow-moving blasts of heat and light that resemble lightning, manipulate air to slow oncoming projectiles and form shields around her body, create fire, create whirring blades made entirely out of air that can slice cleanly through armored soldiers, fire beams of black lightning that erase anything they touch from existence, create crystal shields that deflect direct uses of magic, immobilize targets by hardening the air around them, cause explosions at will, virtually immunity to the magic of anyone who doesn’t possess both manipulate and destructive forms of magic, and every other power in SoT that is associated with either wizards or sorceresses.
Lanfear: Move, pick up, throw, and manipulate objects without touching them, manipulate the air to harden around a target or stop incoming attacks, form a bludgeon from pure Saidar to strike enemies out cold with, make targets’ heads explode, form shields of air around herself, form shields of magic that can withstand explosions and city-cracking magical attacks without any damage to her person, create fire, cause the earth to explode under a target’s feat, manipulate heat energy to make the air around a target drop to extreme temperatures or heat to extreme levels, manipulate water and all other forms of liquid, teleport at will, manipulate the space that a person stands in to slice them cleanly in half, bend light around her body to render herself invisible, create shields that are impervious to sound or air, form crystal barriers around her mind that render her immune to any and all psychic influences, manipuluate the elements, Dreamwalking, Compulsions(reduces a person to a groveling slave, kind of similar to Confession in SoT), fire beams of pure destruction that instantly burn anything they touch out of existence, create weaves of pain that inflict unimaginable suffering on them, sense and manipulate all forms of metal, manipulate spirit, and just about every other power ever seen done with channeling in the Wheel of Time. Lanfear also possesses an angreal, which she can use to increase her already extreme magical powers.
So, there you go, that’s who these two are and what they bring to the table. Who will win? I’m putting my money on Lanfear. Her powers are a lot more versatile and extreme than Nicci’s, and the One Power > Wizard/Sorceress magic. This won’t be a very long battle before Lanfear takes Nicci apart.
Daughter of the Night, FTW!
@AHEM: Thanks for the info on Nicci. I really should get around to reading SoT sometime.
I’m still going to have to go with Lanfear. I get the feeling that the scope of their powers is about equal, but the One Power pretty much owns when comparing types of magic. And the fact that Lanfear’s power is just immense.
Hold on.
Time the fuck OUT!
………is that Scarlet?
I love cat fights…
@Sapper
who doesn’t
and 4 the match i would say Lanfear because of wat every1 is saying
@chewie6000
ur right those bricks r amazing
“Nicci easy. just look at those…
bricks shes standing in front of…”
Are we going into an aesthetic grounds, here? Deciding which one would win based on appearances? Lanfear pwns.
In the SoT universe, Richard Rahl describes Nicci has the second-most beautiful woman he’s ever seen, after Kahlan. Apparently, she’s in a tie with Marissa(Another Sister of the Dark).
In the WoT universe, Rand al’Thor describes Lanfear as THE most beautiful woman he’s ever seen. He even mentions that other women he would normally consider beautiful, including his love interest(s) are only “pretty” next to her. Rahvin, one of Lanfear’s close associates, echoes this, saying that Graendal, who would normally be gorgeous, only looks moderately attractive when Lanfear is in the room. It gets even more thorough when Loial(a non-human Ogier) mentions that Lanfear is what he would imagine to be the perfect form of “human” beauty.
And that’s just Lanfear’s secondary appearance, when she goes about using the One Power to make herself look 20-something. During times of Serious Business, Lanfear goes into her “true form” wherein she takes on a more mature, 30-ish look. Rand claims that she’s even more gorgeous in this form.
So, appearance wise, these two are both at extreme levels of physical beauty, but Lanfear wins out. Sorry, Nicci.
I don’t care who wins so long as the fight is in slow motion…
“I don’t care who wins so long as the fight is in slow motion…”
HAHAHAHA. Yeah, slow-motion for this fight would be awesome.
We’d need it, though, to make this last longer . . . otherwise it will be over in a couple of seconds once Lanfear unleashes all her devestating abilities.
I think I should point something out . . .
If you find this match from google search, it comes with the header, “which sorceress would win?” I just thought I’d clarify to anyone who noticed that, Lanfear is not a sorceress. She is a channeler, a user of Saidar, or(on rare occasions) the True Power. She does not use any form of sorcery, unless you count the One Power.
Aw, Dammit again. All the innuendos are taken….fudgetatters…
Oh well, i nominate lanfear for the win. Balefire alone ends this, and her milf look ends….uh…..yeah…pop goes the weasel?
Damn, those are hot bricks!
In addition to her vaster and more versatile power, Lanfear also brings the advantage of having several methods of countering other users of magic. She can form “shields” that block off a target from the source of their magic, whatever it may be, rendering them unable to manipulate magical energies or cast spells. She’s extrapolated these effects to striking directly at a target’s source of power, effectively burning all traces of magic out of them and leaving them powerfless. Only Rand al’Thor himself has been able to resist this sort of attack directly from the angreal-buffed Lanfear for any length of time.
Lanfear can also sense when someone else draws upon a supernatural source of power(except in the case of Saidin, which is the opposite of Saidar), and can counter such attacks by literally cutting the fabric of the actual spell before it hits her. So, if Nicci threw fire at Lanfear, she would see it coming, and the fire would fizz out of existence right before it hit her. Lanfear’s skill in this area is so extreme that she can thwart multiple weaves coming at her at once, even those that are actually invisible to her.
That’s some pretty extreme spell defense. I think it’s safe to say Nicci’s going to have a pretty hard time countering that, since the most defense she’s ever displayed against direct uses of magic is to simply block them when they hit her.
@Ahem
“Lanfear can also sense when someone else draws upon a supernatural source of power(except in the case of Saidin, which is the opposite of Saidar), and can counter such attacks by literally cutting the fabric of the actual spell before it hits her. So, if Nicci threw fire at Lanfear, she would see it coming, and the fire would fizz out of existence right before it hit her. Lanfear’s skill in this area is so extreme that she can thwart multiple weaves coming at her at once, even those that are actually invisible to her. ”
true, but does the Sot series “weave” its magic?
i know its a petty argument, but it might also mean that lanfear can’t just magically(hehe) cancel out nicci’s hardearned attacks…
“true, but does the Sot series “weave” its magic?
i know its a petty argument, but it might also mean that lanfear can’t just magically(hehe) cancel out nicci’s hardearned attacks…”
“Weaving” is just a euphemism in the WoT world for “structuring magic into a recognizable effect” and “weaves” is a fancy term for “spells.” It incorporates the philosophy that the Wheel of Time itself is a spinning loom, and reality is spun from the threads of the Wheel. There have been different terms within the WoT Universe itself for the same thing. For example, during the Age of Legends, the One Power was considered to be “spun” rather than “woven.”
In the SoT universe, magic IS structured in a similar way. The basic premise of magic is to touch your “Gift” and then spin it into a spell called a “Web” that will accomplish a specific effect. Even if Nicci’s normal magic somehow got a pass, these webs would be blatantly visible to the Daughter of the Night and give her the chance to unravel it. Lanfear would instantly know the moment Nicci touches her Gift, though Nicci would have no similar method to detect Lanfear’s channeling of Saidar. Similarly, when Nicci creates a web or uses her Gift to interact with the world, Lanfear would know that what she’s doing, and be ready to counter it.
Darn, if what AHEM says is true, than Nicci might be walking away from this one. I’d love to say that she wins cause she’s that awesome . . . but if Lanfear can take away her magic that easily, this will be an uphill battle for her, to say the least.
But I have one idea that might help Nicci. She uses both additive and subtractive magic, which in the SoT world means she can easily cut through shields of simply additive magic, and is pretty much immune to any attacks except those that use subtractive magic. Unless Lanfear has some magic that “destroys” absolutely(e.g. makes it vanish into nothingness, doesn’t just blast it apart or something) then her magic will be largely ineffective and Nicci could just win.
“But I have one idea that might help Nicci. She uses both additive and subtractive magic, which in the SoT world means she can easily cut through shields of simply additive magic, and is pretty much immune to any attacks except those that use subtractive magic. Unless Lanfear has some magic that “destroys” absolutely(e.g. makes it vanish into nothingness, doesn’t just blast it apart or something) then her magic will be largely ineffective and Nicci could just win.”
That might be a reasonable argument under most circumstances, except for the fact that Lanfear has BALEFIRE. The whole point of balefire is to make things vanish into nothingness. It is the match, if not the superior, of any subtractive magic that Nicci can unleash. Once Mierin weaves a beam of that(and she has done so before) Nicci is doomed.
“The whole point of balefire is to make things vanish into nothingness. It is the match, if not the superior, of any subtractive magic that Nicci can unleash. Once Mierin weaves a beam of that(and she has done so before) Nicci is doomed.”
I’m pretty sure that Nicci could find a way to protect herself from balefire. Maybe she’d send it to the Underworld or something.
“I’m pretty sure that Nicci could find a way to protect herself from balefire. Maybe she’d send it to the Underworld or something.”
How in the name of the Creator would she do that? I don’t recall reading about Nicci opening any portals to the Underworld or creating Boundaries.
“How in the name of the Creator would she do that? I don’t recall reading about Nicci opening any portals to the Underworld or creating Boundaries.”
Subtractive magic pretty much is a portal to the Underworld. In Chainfire, it was even explicitly stated that things that are Subtracted get sent to the Underworld.
So I was thinking this: Lanfear weaves balefire, Nicci subtracts the balefire and sends it to the Underworld, and it fizzes out.
Now, let me explain myself, since I have a feeling that me daring to imply that balefire has limited power and wouldn’t just erase the whole Underworld instantly is going to get some WoT groupies riled up. Balefire is powerful, but the Underworld is infinite. Once Lanfear’s balefire goes down there, its gone, and Nicci is free to split Lanfear apart with her magic.
“Now, let me explain myself, since I have a feeling that me daring to imply that balefire has limited power and wouldn’t just erase the whole Underworld instantly is going to get some WoT groupies riled up. Balefire is powerful, but the Underworld is infinite. Once Lanfear’s balefire goes down there, its gone, and Nicci is free to split Lanfear apart with her magic.”
I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t call me/us “groupies.” It reminds me unpleasantly of that idiot Jason Ford from another post.
Anyway, such a tactic by Nicci would only result in her being obliterated just the same. Balefire cannot be blocked by any magic. Putting up any sort of shield would cause that shield to be erased from the past when the balefire hits it, thus resulting in it not being there, and Nicci being head dead-center with the now unimpeded balefire beam.
“I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t call me/us “groupies.” It reminds me unpleasantly of that idiot Jason Ford from another post.”
Sorry, sorry, didn’t mean to give offense.
“Anyway, such a tactic by Nicci would only result in her being obliterated just the same. Balefire cannot be blocked by any magic. Putting up any sort of shield would cause that shield to be erased from the past when the balefire hits it, thus resulting in it not being there, and Nicci being head dead-center with the now unimpeded balefire beam.”
Well, Subtractive magic isn’t so much a shield as instant destruction of anything it touches, and whatever it destroys is sent to the Underworld. I think it’s more likely that the balefire hitting the Subtractive magic would just be sent to the Underworld.
Otherwise, we might have an “unstoppable force vs. immovable object” as two forces of absolute destruction hit each other.
“Well, Subtractive magic isn’t so much a shield as instant destruction of anything it touches, and whatever it destroys is sent to the Underworld. I think it’s more likely that the balefire hitting the Subtractive magic would just be sent to the Underworld.”
There is no remote chance of Subtractive magic stopping balefire. If we’re talking about “immovable object vs. unstoppable force” than balefire would prevail for the simple fact that the Subtractive magic will not exist when the balefire hits it.
Think of it like this. Nicci puts up Subtractive screen. Lanfear balefires her. The screen disappears seconds before the balefire touches it. Nicci is now undefended, and is hit by balefire full on. Game over.
I agree with the balefire comments, but I think a spellcaster with the power of Nicci is just too valuable for Lanfear to just destroy. I think she would use Compulsion on her too farther her own diabolical ends (For those who have just read SoT, Compulsion is essentially equal to Confession, except it can be cast at range, on multiple people at once, and takes no time to recharge. It is possible to release a person from Compulsion, however, just as easily as it is to get them under it). Before Nicci even starts to use her Han, Lanfear could have her begging for forgiveness. Remember in Fires of Heaven, when Liadrin (The WoT equivalent of Nicci, except somewhat less powerful) tries to attack Moghedien? Moghedien’s back is turned, and she is distracted, but she somehow manages to realizes what Liandrin is doing, embraces Saidar, and defeats Liandrin before she even finishes her first attack! I know Nicci could probably beat Liandrin, but Lanfear is also way more powerful than Moghedien. I’m guessing Lanfear could give Nicci pain to make a Mord’Sith cry or Compulse her before she even finishes her first attack.
“Remember in Fires of Heaven, when Liadrin (The WoT equivalent of Nicci, except somewhat less powerful) tries to attack Moghedien?”
I think Liandrin would be more aptly considered the equivalent of Sister Ulicia. As for Nicci’s equivalent . . . I’d say Lanfear herself is probably the closest.
“I’m guessing Lanfear could give Nicci pain to make a Mord’Sith cry or Compulse her before she even finishes her first attack.”
It’s properly spelled Mord-Sith.
Anyway, yes, Lanfear is capable of inflicting that kind of pain. Some quotes from the books regarding what she can unleash:
“Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream . . . The pain was there in head and chest like wounds, but the Void firmed, and bodily pain was remote.”
“And there was pain, the world swallowed in agony. Not heart or head this time, but everywhere, every part of him, hot needles stabbing into the Void. He almost thought he could hear a quenching hiss at each thrust, and each came deeper than the last. Her attempts to shield him did not slow; they came faster, stronger. He could not believe she was so strong.”
The Fires of Heaven, Chapter “Choices” pages 630-631.
That’s what her pain weaves feel like, and she’s one of the most skilled users of them, with the possible exception of Semirhage. Not a very pleasant attack to be on the receiving end of, especially when she’s assaulting your mind and the very link to your magic at the same time. In the WoT, only Rand al’Thor has withstood this chain of attacks for any length of time; anyone else(including powerful Aes Sedai such as Moiraine) are knocked out in moments.
Thanks for the correction regarding Mord-Sith, AHEM (Pity, Mord’Sith seems a cooler way to spell it to me). By the way, you think Sister Ulcia is equivalent to Liandrin? Though WoT is usually more powerful than SoT, I think Sisters of the Dark would have an easy time witht the Black Ajah. They have their own magic plus, (at least in Sister Ulcia’s case) several wizards magic, and Subtractive Magic. Lincked, six of them would have destroyed everything in 20 miles if Jagang had not been there. Even Richard knew he had no chance against six of them Linked.
Also, I’ve never read past Soul of the Fire, but at least in Stone of Tears and Blood of the Fold, Sister Ulcia was the leader of the Sisters of the Dark. I know Nicci finally comes out of the Shadow in Faith of the Fallen. Did she somehow prove to be more powerful than Sister Ulcia in that book (Please answer without major spoilers)? When I first saw the thread, I was suprised it was not Sister Ulcia versus Lanfear. I still contend, by the way, that Nicci is no where close to Lanfear’s level.
“By the way, you think Sister Ulcia is equivalent to Liandrin? Though WoT is usually more powerful than SoT, I think Sisters of the Dark would have an easy time witht the Black Ajah. They have their own magic plus, (at least in Sister Ulcia’s case) several wizards magic, and Subtractive Magic. Lincked, six of them would have destroyed everything in 20 miles if Jagang had not been there. Even Richard knew he had no chance against six of them Linked.”
The Sisters of the Dark are some of the most powerful magic users(excepting War Wizards) in SoT, while the Black Ajah are fairly mediocre as far as channelers go, especially compared to the Forsaken. The SotD could probably beat an equal number of Black Ajah, provided they weren’t outnumbered.
I don’t remember any quantification on exact numbers, but it is known that each Sister of the Dark had to have consumed the Han of at least one wizard in order to get subtractive magic, and Ulicia and Liliana both claimed to have stolen the Han of multiple wizards.
I’d like to point out, BTW, that Black Ajah can Link to pool their power as well. Up to thirteen of them can Link and combine their powers at once, and by including male channelers can increase that number further.
“Also, I’ve never read past Soul of the Fire, but at least in Stone of Tears and Blood of the Fold, Sister Ulcia was the leader of the Sisters of the Dark. I know Nicci finally comes out of the Shadow in Faith of the Fallen. Did she somehow prove to be more powerful than Sister Ulcia in that book (Please answer without major spoilers)? When I first saw the thread, I was suprised it was not Sister Ulcia versus Lanfear. I still contend, by the way, that Nicci is no where close to Lanfear’s level.”
Nicci and Ulicia were both among the elite Sisters of the Dark chosen by the Keeper, much more powerful than most other sorceresses or even other SotD. From what I read, it seems that Nicci was exceptionally gifted and had been chosen specifically for her unshatterable determination, but was not quite as experienced as Sister Ulicia, who was centuries old. Since she was the leader, Ulicia was probably slighter more powerful than Nicci.
I’ve read all eleven books, Wizard’s First Rule through Confessor, and I can say that there wasn’t any situation where Nicci and Ulicia tested their power against each other directly in a one-on-one situation, so nothing can be sure.
The reason why I suggested Nicci against Lanfear rather than Ulicia against Lanfear is because, after Faith of the Fallen, Nicci becomes a much more prominant character in the SoT saga starting in Book 6, with a noticeably larger role, while Ulicia never really becomes more important than a secondary antagonist. It makes more sense to put a major character against Lanfear than a minor one, and the contrast is much better.(Blonde with blue eyes in black that only thinks of her causes and goals vs. pale-skinned brunette in white that only thinks of herself.) Besides, Ulicia is obscure enough that it would be pretty difficult to find a picture online to represent her, here.
Thanks, AHEM, for clearing that up. As you have read all eleven books, and seem to be the authority on SoT around here, would you say Faith of the Fallen to Confessor are worth reading? I loved Wizard’s First Rule to Blood of the Fold, and really liked Temple of the Winds, but Soul of Fire really dissapointed me. Online I’ve heard that all books are fantastic, or that all books are absoloutely terrible, or (What seems most likely so far) that the books start fantastic and slowly degrade themselves.
Speaking of pictures, is it possible to put a custom picture next to your name when you make a post? I tried but could not figure out how.
“As you have read all eleven books, and seem to be the authority on SoT around here, would you say Faith of the Fallen to Confessor are worth reading? I loved Wizard’s First Rule to Blood of the Fold, and really liked Temple of the Winds, but Soul of Fire really dissapointed me. Online I’ve heard that all books are fantastic, or that all books are absoloutely terrible, or (What seems most likely so far) that the books start fantastic and slowly degrade themselves.”
The quality of each book is quite controversial, and I couldn’t say for sure whether FotF through Confessor will necessarily appeal to you or disappoint you. Those who read the SoT tend to form one strong opinion either way. Wizard’s First Rule was and remains one of my favorite fantasy books of all time, but the rest of the series never really gets back up to that level. As the series goes on, the author begins to focus less on the steller story and characterization and uses the books more and more as a vehicle for his personal philosophy. It doesn’t really prevent you from enjoying the books if you ignore the constant preaching and just focus on the characters and story, but it does distract from what the books should be. It does get worse over time, but not in a linear fashion; the worst books are Soul of the Fire(fifth) and Naked Empire(eigth), while the last three are at least readable.
I too found “Soul of the Fire” to be dissapointing, though if its any consolation, Faith of the Fallen and Pillars of Creation are quite a bit better than SotF. You might try reading reviews on Amazon.com and similar websites to get an idea of the future books before you read them.
If you are going to read the rest of the series, however, take my advice: Skip the eighth book, “Naked Empire.” Trust me, you don’t want to read it. It is the worst book in the series, the only one(along with SotF) that I would consider “bad”, doesn’t advance the overall plot at all(the characters are basically just running in a circle from beginning to end), and is in general just a waste of time. Everything that Soul of the Fire does wrong, NE does worse. If you really need to know the little that happens in NE, read an online summary on Wikipedia or something.
“Speaking of pictures, is it possible to put a custom picture next to your name when you make a post? I tried but could not figure out how.”
Yes, it is possible. I’m pretty sure you have to download a gravatar from Gravatar.com to display it next to your name, though I wouldn’t know the exact process since I’ve never done it myself.
Thanks for all the info, AHEM.
To recap, Lanfear either obliberates Nicci or keeps her as a mindless slave before Nicci even finishes her first attack.
“To recap, Lanfear either obliberates Nicci or keeps her as a mindless slave before Nicci even finishes her first attack.”
Just to keep this battle going, does anyone propose any possibility of Nicci somehow blocking or avoiding Lanfear’s attacks?
I don’t really see any possibilities myself, due to balefire being unblockable, and SoT magic being useless in blocking Confession, which Compulsion is very similar to.
“I don’t really see any possibilities myself, due to balefire being unblockable, and SoT magic being useless in blocking Confession, which Compulsion is very similar to.”
No, no, NO. Confession can be blocked by SoT magic. Darken Rahl, for example, who was of similar power to Nicci, fashioned wards to put around his men that rendered them immune to Confession except from the Con Dar. Nicci can do the same thing. Nicci would be fine against Compulsion, she wouldn’t be affected.
“No, no, NO. Confession can be blocked by SoT magic. Darken Rahl, for example, who was of similar power to Nicci, fashioned wards to put around his men that rendered them immune to Confession except from the Con Dar. Nicci can do the same thing. Nicci would be fine against Compulsion, she wouldn’t be affected.”
That’s an interesting point, but I’d like to point out that the shields only blocked it because the Confession was additive-based. Since she can alter as well as destroy with her power, Lanfear wielding Saidar could be considered to have both additive and subtractive power, which would render Nicci’s additive-immunity useless.
“No, no, NO. Confession can be blocked by SoT magic. Darken Rahl, for example, who was of similar power to Nicci, fashioned wards to put around his men that rendered them immune to Confession except from the Con Dar. Nicci can do the same thing. Nicci would be fine against Compulsion, she wouldn’t be affected.”
Of course, the only reason Darken Rahl’s shields worked because they were more powerful than Kahlan’s (regular) powers. I believe Lanfear is much more powerful than even Nicci, and her shields could be beaten down, especially since Lanfear can do other things besides just Cumpulsion. Of course, that’s a matter of opinion, but even if Nicci did manage to come up with a shield blocking Compulsion, there’s still balefire.
Another thing. Lanfear has the ability to shield others from magic and even cut them off from magic entirely, something I believe Nicci does not.
“Of course, the only reason Darken Rahl’s shields worked because they were more powerful than Kahlan’s (regular) powers.”
That might have had something to do with it, although it was explicitly pointed out in Wizard’s First Rule that the spells around that quad were both additive and subtractive, and that Zedd’s magic failed against them because he only had additive, and Kahlan’s Confessor’s touch was purely additive until it was joined with the Con Dar, whereupon it became subtractive.
“Another thing. Lanfear has the ability to shield others from magic and even cut them off from magic entirely, something I believe Nicci does not.”
Hmm . . .
Trying to think of a way Nicci could counter that . . .
AHEM, help me out here. Is there any way Lanfear’s “shielding” can be blocked or resisted?
“AHEM, help me out here. Is there any way Lanfear’s “shielding” can be blocked or resisted?”
Shielding can or cannot be successful; it’s like trying to wrestle someone down and restrain them with brute strength, only with channeling and skill involved. It depends largely on how powerful the magic in question is and how difficult it is to suppress said magic. Against weaker channelers, Lanfear can usually shield them easily, no problem. Against stronger ones who have strength similar to her own, such as Rand al’Thor, she has a much harder time and may even try and fail several times. If the shielding weave doesn’t work, she can instantly form another one.
Shielding is stated to be more difficult when the target in question is tapping/touching/using their magic at the exact moment. Nicci might gain some slight protection, if only due to that the first lesson in controlling her magic she learned is to touch her “Han”, and the air often crackles around her as a result of subtle use of her magic. However, given that Lanfear’s magic and feats are on quite a bigger scale than Nicci’s, it would probably be extremely difficult to resist being shielded for more than a brief period of time.
“Of course, the only reason Darken Rahl’s shields worked because they were more powerful than Kahlan’s (regular) powers. I believe Lanfear is much more powerful than even Nicci, and her shields could be beaten down, especially since Lanfear can do other things besides just Cumpulsion.”
(I’ll try to avoid obvious spoilers that you don’t already know, since you haven’t read all the books yet.)
Okay, even if Nicci can’t just block Compulsion with magic, it would still be worthless against her. In addition to all her powers as a sorceress, she also(after Faith of the Fallen) has learned how to harness the D’Haren “Bond” which renders her immune to mental domination. Compulsion is a sort of spirit weave(I gather) that is used to dominate the target’s mind. Again, another layer of protection against Compulsion for Nicci.
I accept that Lanfear might win with her other powers, especially the uber-deadly balefire, but there is no way she’d just be broken into a groveling slave to Lanfear. Just won’t happen. She has too many immunities and protections for that.
I also take issue with this:
“In the SoT universe, Richard Rahl describes Nicci has the second-most beautiful woman he’s ever seen, after Kahlan. Apparently, she’s in a tie with Marissa(Another Sister of the Dark).
In the WoT universe, Rand al’Thor describes Lanfear as THE most beautiful woman he’s ever seen. He even mentions that other women he would normally consider beautiful, including his love interest(s) are only “pretty” next to her. Rahvin, one of Lanfear’s close associates, echoes this, saying that Graendal, who would normally be gorgeous, only looks moderately attractive when Lanfear is in the room. It gets even more thorough when Loial(a non-human Ogier) mentions that Lanfear is what he would imagine to be the perfect form of “human” beauty.”
O RLY? Then read this description of Nicci from KAHLAN’s point of view.(No noticeable plot spoilers contained within.)
“She was of such shapely beauty, her face of such pure perfection, but especially her eyes were of such intelligent lucid witnesses to all around her, that she could only be a creature of profound integrity, or unspeakable evil . . . This woman made Kahlan feel as ugly as a clod of dirt.”-Faith of the Fallen, chapter 20 pages 166-167.
Nicci is second to Kahlan, huh? Riiiiiiiight.
Kahlan herself does not agree with you regarding that pompous flattery of Richard’s. Either that, or she has some serious self-esteem issues when she sees any woman close to her level of attractiveness.
“Okay, even if Nicci can’t just block Compulsion with magic, it would still be worthless against her. In addition to all her powers as a sorceress, she also(after Faith of the Fallen) has learned how to harness the D’Haren “Bond” which renders her immune to mental domination. Compulsion is a sort of spirit weave(I gather) that is used to dominate the target’s mind. Again, another layer of protection against Compulsion for Nicci.”
I gather from all this your a big fan of SoT, John Anen. So am I, but I do not think the Bond would protect Nicci from Lanfear’s Compulsion. If I remember correctly, a Rahl thousands of years ago created the bond to protect them from Dream Walkers, which has a totally different affect than Compulsion. Compulsion is almost parallel to Confession, and the bond has proven to be ineffective against that (Kahlan confessed several D’Harans with the bond in Wizard’s First Rule). I do not think the bond would be sufficient.
If its any recompense, Jagang is the only human character in all of literature I can think of that would have not only Lanfear, but all thirteen Forsaken on their knees…
Thanks for avoiding spoilers for my sake, but if that gets irritating, just say Spoiler Alert and I will not read whatever you write.
“If its any recompense, Jagang is the only human character in all of literature I can think of that would have not only Lanfear, but all thirteen Forsaken on their knees…”
Not true.
If Jagang went up against Lanfear alone, let alone the whole group of Forsaken, he would lose. More than lose; he’d be curbstomped.
The WoT is no stranger to telepaths. In fact, the concept of Dreamwalkers actually appeared in the Wheel of Time in 1992, two years before the first Sword of Truth book was published and four years before Jagang appeared in “Blood of the Fold.” It may be what inspired the author of SoT in the first place. Compare:
wot.wikia.com/wiki/Dreamwalker
sot.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Walker
Lanfear herself is a master dreamwalker. During the War of the Shadow, she “claimed the dream world as her domain”, was able to enter it physically if she wanted to, and was protected from the interventions of other dreamwalkers by a crystal barrier she formed around her thoughts, rendering her mind impeterable. Moghedien, another Forsaken, also exhibited these powers, and was possibly an even better dreamwalker, though not as strong in the One Power.
Good luck, Jagang. You’ll need it.
“I gather from all this your a big fan of SoT, John Anen.”
Yup, especially of “Wizard’s First Rule” and “Faith of the Fallen.” I’m also a bit of a Nicci fan in general, I have to admit. She’s a lot more interesting than even the rest of the cast.
“So am I, but I do not think the Bond would protect Nicci from Lanfear’s Compulsion. If I remember correctly, a Rahl thousands of years ago created the bond to protect them from Dream Walkers, which has a totally different affect than Compulsion. Compulsion is almost parallel to Confession, and the bond has proven to be ineffective against that (Kahlan confessed several D’Harans with the bond in Wizard’s First Rule). I do not think the bond would be sufficient.”
Still not satisfied? Okay, I’ll detail two more defenses Nicci has from Compulsion. Here’s a spoiler-free excerpt I grabbed from the WoT wiki:
“Some people have the strength of mind to try and resist Compulsion subconsciously. If they are able to resist, they are then able to free themselves of the implanted command. This does not, however, protect the victim from a subsequent or more powerful use of Compulsion.
If one is commanded under Compulsion to commit an action that is an innermost desire, the command will persist for the remainder of that person’s life. Conversely, Compulsion has no effect on a person who is currently holding the One Power.”
wot.wikia.com/wiki/Compulsion
The One Power provides immunity from Compulsion. While Nicci does not actually channel the One Power, she is almost constantly touching her “Han” which might insulate her against it and provide some level of resistance. Additionally, it is possible for a very determined and strong minded individual to resist Compulsion, kind of like a Jedi Mind Trick from Star Wars or the Imperious Curse from Harry Potter.
So, Lanfear might be able to use Compulsion to subjugate Nicci, provided that:
1) The Bond doesn’t render it impossible.
2) And Nicci touching her Gift doesn’t afford her the same protection a channeler gets from touching the One Power.
3) And she cannot just cover herself in webs of magic that block Compulsion.
4) AND she doesn’t simply resist the Compulsion by strength of will.
That’s quite a bumpy road for Lanfear to get past, don’tcha think? If any one of those ends up providing Nicci with any level of protection from Compulsion, it will be impossible for Lanfear to break her. The last one is going to be particularly difficult to surmount; Nicci is one of the most composed and strong-willed characters I’ve ever read about in all of fiction. It would be no simple task to bring her to heel like a puppy even if she had no protection.
I know you haven’t read past Soul of the Fire, and I’m not trying to sound patronizing or anything to someone who hasn’t finished the series, but I strongly recommend reading the next book, “Faith of the Fallen” if you want to get a better idea as to what Nicci is capable of. She really only had a passing role in the first five, but the sixth goes really in-depth on Nicci’s powers and history and her warped view of the world(there are actually chapters from her POV) and is one of the more interesting books in the series. The author starts to get a bit preachy with the plots there, but otherwise its one of the most interesting books in the series and definitely one of my favorites.
“If Jagang went up against Lanfear alone, let alone the whole group of Forsaken, he would lose. More than lose; he’d be curbstomped.”
I personally disagree, but as that belongs on another Duel and I do not want to be drawn into an irrevelant argument, I’ll let the jibe on one of the nastiest villians of all time slide.
I still think Nicci would have no weapon against Compulsion, but I think she may have a way to resist balefire. Balefire would destroy a shield of Subtractive Magic, true, but what if Nicci cast the Subtractive Magic directly on the balefire? Would that not make it vanish, like Richard’s beard in Stone of Tears?
“Is there any way Lanfear’s “shielding” can be blocked or resisted?”
I don’t think Nicci could block Lanfear’s shield, but there examples in SoT of a type of shielding. The People’s Palace acted as one massive shield on Zeddicus in Wizard’s First Rule, the Rada’Han and the savage’s bracelet also would work, though how Nicci could get a Rada’Han on Lanfear is beyond me…
“The One Power provides immunity from Compulsion.”
WHAT? That wiki was wrong, John Anen. The first use of Compulsion used in WoT is in Shadow Rising when Moghedien uses it against Elayne and Nynaeve. Elayne was holding the power, was full to the brim with it, and was ready to use it against Moghedien if she “channeled a spark” and yet was completely and utterly Compulsed for the rest of the chapter, and had some of its affects (i.e. memory loss) at least for a few weeks.
As for webs that could block it, that would mean Nicci was more powerful than Lanfear, which I still contend she is not.
As for the bond, I’ve made my point on that before, it has not worked on Confession, so it probably will not work on Confession.
As for strong willed, you may have me there. Lanfear is certainly strong willed, but, as I have never read Faith of the Fallen (yet-I plan to, I just needed a break after Soul of the Fire, and Nicci POV sounds awesome) I cannot speak for Nicci. Would AHEM or others who have read both series help me out?
By the way, John Anen, I understand why you are fighting so hard against the idea of one of your favorite characters being Compulsed. Imagine how I feel…some of my favorite characters WERE compulsed….
“I personally disagree, but as that belongs on another Duel and I do not want to be drawn into an irrevelant argument, I’ll let the jibe on one of the nastiest villians of all time slide.”
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to imply that Jagang’s a wimp or anything. By all means, he’d be a terrifying foe for just about anyone else to face. I just don’t think he’d be able to do much against an opponent who is explictly immune to dreamwalking or any other mental breach.
Remember, combat isn’t personal. Just because a character would lose against one doesn’t make them less of a character or a villain, or make their enemy better than them.(Are you listening, John Anen?)
“WHAT? That wiki was wrong, John Anen. The first use of Compulsion used in WoT is in Shadow Rising when Moghedien uses it against Elayne and Nynaeve. Elayne was holding the power, was full to the brim with it, and was ready to use it against Moghedien if she “channeled a spark” and yet was completely and utterly Compulsed for the rest of the chapter, and had some of its affects (i.e. memory loss) at least for a few weeks.”
This dispute piqued my curiousity, so I did a search of the books. The incident in question happens in Ch. 46 of “The Shadow Rising.”
“As Rendra turned to go, Elayne began weaving flows of Air, thick as cables and ready to bind, flows of Spirit to shield another from the Source. If this woman so much as resembled one on their list, if she tried to channel a spark . . .
“The woman who stepped in the Chamber . . . Smiling, she closed the door behind her. ‘Forgive me, but I thought you were–’ The glow of Saidar surrounded her, and she . . .
“Elayne released the True Source. There was something very commanding in those dark eyes, in the halo around her, the pale radiance of the One Power.”
Though the wording is a bit ambiguous, but it does seem that yes, Elayne was indeed holding the One Power(though nothing implied she was “full to the brim” with it), unless there’s a difference between touching the True Source and getting weaves ready to be channeled out and actually “holding the One Power” but that seems like going a bit too deep for my taste. Perhaps what the wiki meant was that it wouldn’t work on someone who was channeling great amounts, or that it was possible for a channeler to block Compulsion with one weave or another.
“As for strong willed, you may have me there. Lanfear is certainly strong willed, but, as I have never read Faith of the Fallen (yet-I plan to, I just needed a break after Soul of the Fire, and Nicci POV sounds awesome) I cannot speak for Nicci. Would AHEM or others who have read both series help me out?”
Certainly.
Compulsion doesn’t seem to work by the willpower of the person weaving the Compulsion, but rather by the strength of their channeling(unless I missed something), so Lanfear’s willpower wouldn’t really come into play. Nicci’s would, though.
We only get hints of Nicci’s actual willpower in the first few books, though it is mentioned that the Keeper selected her for her “singular resolve to prevail” and that she was “the most self-possessed of the Sisters.”
While in the hands of the Imperial Order, she was one of the only Sisters of the Dark who retained a semblance of calm; she at one point angrily ordered the panicky others not to give up and to think of something to get out of the situation, after she herself had been summarily handed over to the custody of a group of sailors who had some rather unpleasant things in mind for her.
“Faith of the Fallen” gives a much deeper look into Nicci’s psyche, about the goals she’s been pursuing throughout her life and what she’s done to bring them about. To avoid spoilers, I’ll just say that Nicci does some pretty extreme things in the name of her goals, and her backstory reveals that her determination has carried her through some of the worst that the SoT world, grim and dark as it can be, has to throw at her. Despite being so warped and stiffened by hardship that others wonder if she is insane, she remains totally focused on her private quest and to her personal creeds that even Jagang finds trying to intimidate her impossible, because nothing he could do can scare her or shake her determination.
I have to agree with Anen that Nicci would be a pretty tough target to bring under control, even with a mind-controlling weave as potent as Compulsion. She has an enormous amount of mental fortitude(pretty necessary considering what she’s been through) and is one of the most cunning and practical characters in the entire series.
“While in the hands of the Imperial Order, she was one of the only Sisters of the Dark who retained a semblance of calm; she at one point angrily ordered the panicky others not to give up and to think of something to get out of the situation, after she herself had been summarily handed over to the custody of a group of sailors who had some rather unpleasant things in mind for her.
“Faith of the Fallen” gives a much deeper look into Nicci’s psyche, about the goals she’s been pursuing throughout her life and what she’s done to bring them about. To avoid spoilers, I’ll just say that Nicci does some pretty extreme things in the name of her goals, and her backstory reveals that her determination has carried her through some of the worst that the SoT world, grim and dark as it can be, has to throw at her. Despite being so warped and stiffened by hardship that others wonder if she is insane, she remains totally focused on her private quest and to her personal creeds that even Jagang finds trying to intimidate her impossible, because nothing he could do can scare her or shake her determination.”
Those are some good points there. For now, I’ll agree that Nicci would (most likely) be able to resist Compulsion (though how she could and Nynaeve and Morgase could not I have no idea). And by the way, “rather unpleasant” is putting it very, very mildy…
“I think she may have a way to resist balefire. Balefire would destroy a shield of Subtractive Magic, true, but what if Nicci cast the Subtractive Magic directly on the balefire? Would that not make it vanish, like Richard’s beard in Stone of Tears?”
Sorry, I was not thinking when I wrote that. Though I don’t remember it from an actual reference from the books, I’ve read several posts saying that balefire travels at the speed of light. If that is true, there is no way Nicci would be able to have time to put subtractive magic on it…if Lanfear had not shielded or stilled her first…
“Those are some good points there. For now, I’ll agree that Nicci would (most likely) be able to resist Compulsion (though how she could and Nynaeve and Morgase could not I have no idea). And by the way, ‘rather unpleasant’ is putting it very, very mildy…”
When anything regarding Nicci’s experiences/past is discussed, it is quite important to maintain a political correct, ambiguous tone. It isn’t a subject for polite conversation.
The scary thing is, her backstory is filled with even worse stuff. Take for example the Namble. *Shudders*
“Sorry, I was not thinking when I wrote that. Though I don’t remember it from an actual reference from the books, I’ve read several posts saying that balefire travels at the speed of light. If that is true, there is no way Nicci would be able to have time to put subtractive magic on it…if Lanfear had not shielded or stilled her first…”
While, not necessarily. Balefire moves at the speed of light, but it doesn’t move until it is woven out. If Nicci already had a shield in place, before Lanfear struck, it wouldn’t be an issue.
That’s a pretty moot point, though, since it is pretty much impossible to block balefire in any way. Even if subtractive magic could “erase” balefire, it would make no deference, because merely contacting the balefire will cause the magic to be erased from time retroactively, and thus, it wouldn’t exist by the time the balefire passes through the space it once occupied to strike at the target.
“When anything regarding Nicci’s experiences/past is discussed, it is quite important to maintain a political correct, ambiguous tone. It isn’t a subject for polite conversation.”
I totally agree.
“That’s a pretty moot point, though, since it is pretty much impossible to block balefire in any way. Even if subtractive magic could “erase” balefire, it would make no deference, because merely contacting the balefire will cause the magic to be erased from time retroactively, and thus, it wouldn’t exist by the time the balefire passes through the space it once occupied to strike at the target.”
Thinking back on it, I wonder if Subtractive magic combined with balefire would be potent enough for another rip in the veil…if anything could set the Keeper free, those two combined could…
“WHAT? That wiki was wrong, John Anen. The first use of Compulsion used in WoT is in Shadow Rising when Moghedien uses it against Elayne and Nynaeve. Elayne was holding the power, was full to the brim with it, and was ready to use it against Moghedien if she “channeled a spark” and yet was completely and utterly Compulsed for the rest of the chapter, and had some of its affects (i.e. memory loss) at least for a few weeks.”
I can’t really speak from experience since I haven’t read the Wheel of Time, but after reading the excerpts that AHEM posted, I’ll admit that the information I had was probably not correct and withdraw my previous statement. I guess just touching magic isn’t enough to stop Compulsion all by itself.
“By the way, John Anen, I understand why you are fighting so hard against the idea of one of your favorite characters being Compulsed. Imagine how I feel…some of my favorite characters WERE compulsed….”
I really hope that I’m not coming across as just a crazy SoT fan who is unwilling to accept defeat that’s staring him in the face, but I honestly believe that Compulsion would not work against Nicci. Like AHEM said, she is a very driven individual who demonstrates a lot of intelligence and cunning as well, and she’s an adept at turning other conventions of magic against their masters.
Anyone who can effectively HACK the D’Haran Bond to steal its effects without swearing loyalty to anyone is a pretty tricky opponent to bring down in my view. Compulsion seems to effect different people differently, but I’d say Nicci could free herself of it if anyone can.
This Compulsion is a pretty nasty weapon, though. I do not like it very much at all. Strange, though, talking about this compulsion stuff makes me think of the character Senna from the “Everworld” series, who does something similar . . . and I just noticed that Senna looks almost exactly like Nicci in my mind, except younger with and with gray eyes. Weird.
“This Compulsion is a pretty nasty weapon, though. I do not like it very much at all.”
Neither do I. Though that it pretty strange coming from a SoT fan, as Confession is practically Compulsion and is used way more in SoT than in WoT…
“I really hope that I’m not coming across as just a crazy SoT fan who is unwilling to accept defeat that’s staring him in the face, but I honestly believe that Compulsion would not work against Nicci. Like AHEM said, she is a very driven individual who demonstrates a lot of intelligence and cunning as well, and she’s an adept at turning other conventions of magic against their masters.”
Don’t worry, you are not coming across as a insane fanatic SoT fan. I also finally agree Nicci has a pretty good chance, (if not 100%) of resisting Compulsion, especially since we have never seen Lanfear cast it, its more Graendal’s thing.
So Compulsion is out. But what about shielding/stilling, or balefire? Can anybody think of a way Nicci could resist those?
“So Compulsion is out. But what about shielding/stilling, or balefire? Can anybody think of a way Nicci could resist those?”
Stilling(Or “severing” as Lanfear would prefer to call it) a target on the spot is not a very likely attack that Lanfear would utilize. It is typically performed by thirteen Aes Sedai on a single target as a sort of ritual.
However, it does seem to be possible for a channeler to actually still an enemy by themselves if they are strong enough in the One Power. I say this because near the end of “The Shadow Rising”, Nynaeve and Moghedien exchanged blasts of spirit in an attempt to strike at each other’s links to Saidar, and it was implied that if they struck deep enough, they would be severed permanently. Since Lanfear, even in her weakest incarnation, is even stronger than either of them, she should be able to form a similar weave.
Since Nicci does not channel the One Power, it may not be stilling in the sense Lanfear is used to, but those spirit-slicing weaves would probably burn Nicci’s gift/Han away. However, she does have an additional defense that Lanfear won’t anticipate; she has multiple Han. In addition to her own natural powers as a sorceress, she also has at least one Han from a wizard.
This might depend a little on how the severing strike would interact with Nicc’s multiHan. If she was able to completely burn out Nicci’s ability to interact with magic at all, then Nicci is screwed. However, if it only destroys one of the sources that Nicci draws her power from, then Nicci would still be able to use magic after being seemingly stilled, though with decreased power.(And a hell of a lot of pain.)
It depends on the inner mechanics of the act of severing. Since all WoT channelers have just one source of power that they use to draw from either Saidin or Saidar, it isn’t clear if severing destroys their ability to manipulate any magic forever, burns away all magic they could draw from, or simply “breaks” the individual source that they draw power from. Based on Nynaeve’s experiments on Logain and the result of them, I would be inclined to say that it is the latter, which would be the best from Nicci’s perspective.
As for shielding . . . that would be more difficult to find a loophole around. The idea of shielding is to block a person from tapping into any magic, after all, so its doubtful Nicci’s multiHan could help her here. Resisting a shielding weave from Lanfear, one of the most powerful channelers of Saidar to ever live, would be extraordinarily difficult, but I wouldn’t say it is automatically impossible. It is more difficult to shield someone who is currently using/touching their magic, as Nicci does almost constantly, and it has been seen that it is possible to resist a shielding weave, much as one can “resist” someone trying to wrestle you down and handcuff you. I think Nicci might be able to resist being shielded, but not for very long, especially given her inability to slice through constructs of magic as Lanfear can.
Balefire . . . nope, I can’t really think of a reliable way that Nicci could beat or avoid that, but in her defense, she might not face it unless Lanfear grows desperate. Even among the Forsaken, balefire is considered an extremely dangerous power that is rarely used as anything other than a weapon of last resort, unless they really really want to kill something deader than dead. Even against Rand al’Thor in the fifth book, Lanfear held herself back in the use of balefire.
“Even among the Forsaken, balefire is considered an extremely dangerous power that is rarely used as anything other than a weapon of last resort, unless they really really want to kill something deader than dead. Even against Rand al’Thor in the fifth book, Lanfear held herself back in the use of balefire.”
It seems to depend on the Forsaken in question. Moghedien used balefire in Crown of Swords against Nynaeve, when a ball of Fire would have had the same effect. Then again, Moghedien has a very deep grudge against Nynaeve…
I think Lanfear would try Compulsing Nicci before anything else, once she realized exactly how much power she could hold, as female holders of Saidar can. When that fails, Nicci may have a chance to strike at Lanfear before Lanfear began her second attack. We’ve been talking a lot about how Lanfear could kill Nicci. What could Nicci do against Lanfear?
“I think Lanfear would try Compulsing Nicci before anything else, once she realized exactly how much power she could hold, as female holders of Saidar can. When that fails, Nicci may have a chance to strike at Lanfear before Lanfear began her second attack. We’ve been talking a lot about how Lanfear could kill Nicci. What could Nicci do against Lanfear?”
I searched through the books for some incidents where Nicci lets loose, and typed out these excerpts from several different situations across several books. I’ll try to keep names and plot information out of ‘em.(Warning, these will be rather violent.)
#1
“Nicci thrust a fist in the direction of the closest as he lifted his whip to lash out and entangle her. With the speed of thought, both Additive Magic and Subtractive twined together in a lethal mix as she unleashed a focused bolt of power. It produced a burst of light so hot and white that for an instant it made the sunlight seem dim and cold by comparison. The blast blew a mellon-sized hole through the center of the soldier’s chest. . . .
“Before the soldier hit the ground, Nicci unleashed her power on three more of the charging men, taking off one’s entire shoulder, the wallop whirling him around like a ghastly fountain, the dangling limb flinging off into the ground. A third man was cut almost in two. She felt the concussion of the following bolt deep in her chest and, amid the blinding flash, the fourth man’s head came apart in a cloud of red mist and bony debris.”
#2
“In an blinding instant the late-afternoon camp was lit with a flash of crackling light–discharges created by the intense heat generated by a focused compression of air. Threads of light lashed around the convergent release of force. . . .
“Since even a slight slip could conceivably give him an opportunity to strike out before he died, Nicci didn’t even risk the satisfaction of smiling as the iron-hard spike of air shot for his head.
“Before he even realized that something was happening, Nicci’s sudden release of power blew a fist sized hole through the center of his forehead.”
#3
“Nicci unleashed a blast of opposing magic twined together in a shattering ignition that in ruinous fury leveled the tents and blasted through the men on the knoll. The devestating concussion radiated outward in a circle at breathtaking speed, stripping flesh from bone.”
#4
“Nicci directed a web of power at the men rushing in at her, each in turn–just for an instant, but long enough to stop their hearts. They stumbled, clutching their chests. In a way, it was more frightening for men to see their comrades gasp and drop from a mysterious cause than it was to see them rent by violence.”
#5
“Without pause she fed a flow of her Han into a focused line of power that she swept around her like a blade wielded by a master swordsman. Her target grunted as that hot edge ripped through him, cutting him in two below the rib cage. His mouth opened but no scream escaped as his upper half tumbled toward the ground, landing with a hard thud . . .
“The second man could do no more than gasp as he was hit by the same power and torn in two. . . . With frightening speed and a flash that lit the shimmering leaves of the nearby cottonwood trees, the edge of deadly power sizzled as it ripped through the air. Before anyone could begin to react, it cut down all the men on horses around her as they still sat on their saddles.”
#6
“She released a tight bolt of Additive and Subtractive Magic laced together in a fearsome cord of destruction that arced through the wizard’s shields like lightning through paper and blew a mellon-sized hole right through the center of his chest.
“The man hadn’t known that his power was no match for hers. He could only conjure shields of Additive Magic. Such shields were of limited use against both Additive and Subtractive Magic.”
Her preferred method seems to be using Additive and Subtractive Magic simultaneously, and blowing “mellon-sized holes” in things.
Also, I believe I gave an account of all the powers I’d seen Nicci demonstrate earlier in this debate.
“As for their powers:
“Nicci: Move, pick up, throw, and manipulate objects without touching them, make objects vanish into nothingness, create slow-moving blasts of heat and light that resemble lightning, manipulate air to slow oncoming projectiles and form shields around her body, create fire, create whirring blades made entirely out of air that can slice cleanly through armored soldiers, fire beams of black lightning that erase anything they touch from existence, create crystal shields that deflect direct uses of magic, immobilize targets by hardening the air around them, cause explosions at will, virtually immunity to the magic of anyone who doesn’t possess both manipulate and destructive forms of magic, and every other power in SoT that is associated with either wizards or sorceresses.”
Hope that gives a good idea of what Nicci is capable of.
Thanks….I can see why some people are arguing she might beat Lanfear now.
I still do not think she can though. All of these powers seem blockable by a strong enough shield, which Lanfear can certainly come up with.
“Neither do I. Though that it pretty strange coming from a SoT fan, as Confession is practically Compulsion and is used way more in SoT than in WoT…”
Whoever said that I liked Confession? I don’t. In fact, aside from Kahlan, I find Confessors in general to be a rather distasteful group. An order of magically empowered women who reproduce by mindraping and enslaving the most attractive men they can find, and practicing infanticide on any of their male offspring, while ruling the Midlands by what amounts to threat of magical retaliation doesn’t really appeal to me very much in a personal manner. I’m kind of glad that Darken Rahl had his quads kill the rest of them off. Good riddance.
Right now I recognize that Lanfear seems to be holding most of the cards, but I still think Nicci could potentially win this. My line of thinking right now is that Lanfear’s arrogance will be her undoing, like with the wizard Nicci killed in AHEM’s #6 example. She’ll probably throw a Compulsion on Nicci, not imagining for a moment that she might fail and Nicci resist it, but then when she thinks she has her neat as a package in her hand, she’ll get a “mellon-sized hole” put through her middle. Same thing might happen with shielding and stilling. Lanfear doesn’t really come across to me as a very calm and tolerant individual.
@AHEM:
I’m curious, one moment you seem to be all Lanfear support, and the next you’re talking about ways that Nicci could potentially beat Lanfear. Which side are you on? Are you just riding the fence to keep the debate going longer?
Sorry to double post, but I forget to ask: What kind of shields can Lanfear put up?
“Whoever said that I liked Confession? I don’t. In fact, aside from Kahlan, I find Confessors in general to be a rather distasteful group. An order of magically empowered women who reproduce by mindraping and enslaving the most attractive men they can find, and practicing infanticide on any of their male offspring, while ruling the Midlands by what amounts to threat of magical retaliation doesn’t really appeal to me very much in a personal manner. I’m kind of glad that Darken Rahl had his quads kill the rest of them off. Good riddance.”
At long last! Somebody else does not like Confessors! The book Confessors are bad enough, but the Confessors in Legend of the Seeker are much, much worse. Uggh…Even Kahlan in the novels has had a few moments when I wanted to shoot her…
“What kind of shields can Lanfear put up?”
Shields in WoT are similiar to shields in SoT, mostly made of Air and very, very powerful. They can deflect physical objects and magic (I think).
“My line of thinking right now is that Lanfear’s arrogance will be her undoing, like with the wizard Nicci killed in AHEM’s #6 example. She’ll probably throw a Compulsion on Nicci, not imagining for a moment that she might fail and Nicci resist it, but then when she thinks she has her neat as a package in her hand, she’ll get a “mellon-sized hole” put through her middle. Same thing might happen with shielding and stilling. Lanfear doesn’t really come across to me as a very calm and tolerant individual.”
Possible. The reason she got killed (at least the first time) is her mad jealousy. She was fighting a duel with Rand, and would have eventually won if Moraine had no sacrificed herself. However, besides that one example, which depended on outside help, she still accomplished what she wanted, even when she was angry.
As for not imagining a moment that Nicci might resist Compulsion, Lanfear knows much better than you or I the limits of Compulsion, and there have been examples where it has failed or been resisted before, so Lanfear would be 100% sure it would work. Besides, resisting Compulsion from someone on Lanfear’s level would cause serious mental strain even for Nicci, which may or may not affect the rest of the duel.
“At long last! Somebody else does not like Confessors! The book Confessors are bad enough, but the Confessors in Legend of the Seeker are much, much worse. Uggh…Even Kahlan in the novels has had a few moments when I wanted to shoot her…”
Just thought I’d throw in, I’m not exactly fond of Confessors either. Kahlan is okay, except for the occasional moments where she just goes bloodthirsty, e.g. “Mercy to the guilty is treson to the innocent”, “I plan to kill every man, woman, and child who follows the Imperial Order”, etc.
Legend of the Seeker Confessors really got on my bad side too, but they were probably a good example of what the book Confessors were like, since we never saw any other than Kahlan and (in a flashback) Dennee throughout the books. The good thing about Legend of the Seeker, however, is that Richard actually called them out on everything. This was really one of my favorite parts of LotS, because in the novels Richard starts to be a bit of a preacher later in the series when the author has him rant his personal ideas and speeches, and the episode “Sacrifice” finally put his charisma to good use, lol.
“Shields in WoT are similiar to shields in SoT, mostly made of Air and very, very powerful. They can deflect physical objects and magic (I think).”
I should mention, in one of the books Rand al’Thor conjures a shield around himself that he claims could “keep out anything short of balefire” and with it he tanked several One Power-based attacks from one of the Forsaken, attacks with such power that it actually shattered nearby marble columns to bits. Channelers also have the ability to erect “wards” around areas to cause effects without having to constantly maintain them, so Lanfear could weave a ward around herself to deflect damage and still keep channeling. She can maintain multiple weaves at once if I remember correctly, not counting ones that she has “tied off” and thus no longer needs to worry about.(Tied off weaves don’t need to be consciously maintained, as they are given a set amount of power and keep functioning until they run out of juice.) Nicci has the same claim with putting “webs” around herself(like Darken Rahl did with Demmin Nass), so both of them should be covered as far as shields go.
“@AHEM:
I’m curious, one moment you seem to be all Lanfear support, and the next you’re talking about ways that Nicci could potentially beat Lanfear. Which side are you on? Are you just riding the fence to keep the debate going longer?”
I’m trying to stay somewhat neutral and debate from an objective position, without really putting myself squarely on either “side.” If I do that, then I end up looking for ways for the one I’m routing for can win and ignoring information that might go against them. Which character I’d want to win is irrevelent to who I think WOULD win.
On a personal grounds, I like both of them; they’re both very interesting and definitely among my favorite characters in their respective series. As a villain, I prefer Lanfear’s power-seeking, ambitious, determined, jealous, and sometimes playful demeanor over Nicci’s cold, stoic, unfettered uncaring attitude towards everything. However, as a character, Nicci gets a lot more exploration and character development, with a much larger role in the series, and her character arc goes towards a more satisfying conclusion than Lanfear’s, at least as far as I’ve seen.
Like I said in my first post, I think Lanfear has the definite upper hand and is a step above Nicci in power and finesse, and the One Power(especially backed by the True Power, which Lanfear can channel) tends to dominate systems of magic from Sword of Truth, Harry Potter, or the Inheritance Cycle, though I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a curbstomp.
“The reason she got killed (at least the first time) is her mad jealousy. She was fighting a duel with Rand, and would have eventually won if Moraine had no sacrificed herself.”
Just thought I’d point out, according to the related prophecy, the duel between Lanfear and Rand could have gone either way. There were three outcomes, Rand winning, Lanfear winning, and Lanfear seducing Rand to join her. Rand was kind of stabbing himself in the foot because of his difficulty in harming women.
“Just thought I’d point out, according to the related prophecy, the duel between Lanfear and Rand could have gone either way. There were three outcomes, Rand winning, Lanfear winning, and Lanfear seducing Rand to join her. Rand was kind of stabbing himself in the foot because of his difficulty in harming women.”
Prophecy? I thought it was what Moraine learned of her future in Rhuidean that told her of the three outcomes.
Is there any reason that Nicci could not just use Subtractive Magic on Lanfear herself? Not a shield, but just send her to the Underworld like Richard did with his beard at the end of Stone of Tears? There is probably some reason this would not work, but I cannot think of it. Something as unexpected as that may defeat even Lanfear.
“Prophecy? I thought it was what Moraine learned of her future in Rhuidean that told her of the three outcomes.”
I figured that counted as a prophecy. What else would you call it? Really advanced precognition? Hacking knowledge from the future? A reverse history lesson?
“Is there any reason that Nicci could not just use Subtractive Magic on Lanfear herself? Not a shield, but just send her to the Underworld like Richard did with his beard at the end of Stone of Tears? There is probably some reason this would not work, but I cannot think of it. Something as unexpected as that may defeat even Lanfear.”
Well, that’s kind of the point of Subtractive Magic, release black beams/constructs of a sort of negative energy that devour whatever they touch and send it to the underworld. If such Subtractive Magic closed in on Lanfear, it would likely have to get by any shields she has in place first.
In SoT, shields made by someone who has both Additive and Subtractive Magic seem to be capable of stopping Subtractive Magic, while shields made by those who have only Additive crumple away. As far as SoT magic is concerned, Lanfear DOES wield both kinds, evidenced by her ability to command balefire, a completely destructive power. Like Subtractive lightning, any attempt to just “send her to the underworld” would likely be stopped by her shield.
The other alternative is creating a “boundary” right where Lanfear stands, which would be less likely of an outcome, since Nicci had no hand in the creation or destruction of the boundaries and they were made by ancient magic that she does not possess. If it did happen, though, Lanfear could likely keep herself safe using Saidar, much the same way Kahlan kept herself safe using Shar, and open a gateway to take her outside the limits of the boundary.
“I figured that counted as a prophecy. What else would you call it? Really advanced precognition? Hacking knowledge from the future? A reverse history lesson”
Just wanted to make sure there was not something written about that in Propehcies of the Dragon or something…
Good points about the shield. I was just looking for some way Nicci could gain the upper hand. As for creating a boundrary, Zedd was able to do that in this day and age, and only with Subtractive Magic, but he knew more about magic than Nicci does, and it surely would take enough time to do so for Lanfear to obliberate Nicci in one way or another…
“As for not imagining a moment that Nicci might resist Compulsion, Lanfear knows much better than you or I the limits of Compulsion, and there have been examples where it has failed or been resisted before, so Lanfear would be 100% sure it would work. Besides, resisting Compulsion from someone on Lanfear’s level would cause serious mental strain even for Nicci, which may or may not affect the rest of the duel.”
Well, I suppose Lanfear wouldn’t be fooled by a failing in Compulsion so easily, but I’m still thinking she might get tripped up in some other ways, since she’s fighting a type of opponent she’s never encountered before. Factors like someone with multiple Han instead of a single “spark” of the One Power and stuff that is outside her normal pool of experience might turn her skill against her.
“Good points about the shield. I was just looking for some way Nicci could gain the upper hand. As for creating a boundrary, Zedd was able to do that in this day and age, and only with Subtractive Magic, but he knew more about magic than Nicci does, and it surely would take enough time to do so for Lanfear to obliberate Nicci in one way or another…”
Actually, Zedd had only Additive magic, not only Subtractive.
Zedd actually didn’t create the boundaries using just his own power. His ordinary power was bolstered by an ancient magic called a “spell of threes” which gave him numerous powers he normally didn’t have.(This is covered in the prequel, “Debt of Bones.”)
“Actually, Zedd had only Additive magic, not only Subtractive.”
Oooops. Typo.
“Well, I suppose Lanfear wouldn’t be fooled by a failing in Compulsion so easily, but I’m still thinking she might get tripped up in some other ways, since she’s fighting a type of opponent she’s never encountered before. Factors like someone with multiple Han instead of a single “spark” of the One Power and stuff that is outside her normal pool of experience might turn her skill against her.”
Don’t forget, the same is true for Nicci. Nicci is fighting a Forsaken, who not only has the powers of Nicci, Kahlan and Jagang, but can teleport, use balefire, shield/still, and uses a form of magic that includes both Additive and Subtractive (to name but a few of the things Lanfear can do and Nicci cannot).
If anyone is going to get a shock from this encounter, it would be Nicci.
“Don’t forget, the same is true for Nicci. Nicci is fighting a Forsaken, who not only has the powers of Nicci, Kahlan and Jagang, but can teleport, use balefire, shield/still, and uses a form of magic that includes both Additive and Subtractive (to name but a few of the things Lanfear can do and Nicci cannot).
If anyone is going to get a shock from this encounter, it would be Nicci.”
So Nicci would perceive Lanfear as a sorceress-confessor-dreamwalker-sliph-war wizard with Super Subtractive Beams of Death and anti-magic?
Compulsion might even count as the powers of the Con Dar or a male Confessor, since it can strike at range and doesn’t need to recharge. Being a Dreamwalker probably wouldn’t help much against Nicci, but the “combo” would be pretty intimidating to face.
Yeah, surprise is a double-edge sword. That’s the way these things go when universed collide.
“So Nicci would perceive Lanfear as a sorceress-confessor-dreamwalker-sliph-war wizard with Super Subtractive Beams of Death and anti-magic?”
Yes. Exactly.
“Yes. Exactly.”
That’s quite a lot for any SoT character to face . . .
“I know these two characters aren’t as well known yet, but once the Wheel of time series gets turned into a movie, and Legend of the Seeker moves into further seasons, I think these two characters will have more exposure.”
This thread, and this sentence, reminded me of something. Even though Legend of the Seeker has already gone into its second sentence, where Nicci should appear, I’ve watched every episode and there hasn’t been a hint of the Sisters of the Light/Dark so far.
It’s a shame, because before a character is actually portrayed by an actor/actress, they aren’t quite as well known and its harder to find visual representations of them. Aside from the picture used in this debate, I think the best artwork of Nicci I’ve seen online is this:
www.elfwood.com/~mandiflick/Deaths_Mistress.3008334.html
“This thread, and this sentence, reminded me of something. Even though Legend of the Seeker has already gone into its second sentence, where Nicci should appear, I’ve watched every episode and there hasn’t been a hint of the Sisters of the Light/Dark so far.”
Not yet…but one of the upcoming episodes is named “Perdition”, Zeddicus confirmed that Richard had magical powers in Fury, and, in that same episode, there was a moment of what might have been Richard’s first headache (those three seconds when the world tilted). The Prelate, Sister Verna, Nicci, Nathan, Sister Ulcia, and Warren may be just what this show needs…
“It’s a shame, because before a character is actually portrayed by an actor/actress, they aren’t quite as well known and its harder to find visual representations of them. Aside from the picture used in this debate, I think the best artwork of Nicci I’ve seen online is this:”
Hmm, bloodsplattered. Appropriate.
“Not yet…but one of the upcoming episodes is named “Perdition”, Zeddicus confirmed that Richard had magical powers in Fury, and, in that same episode, there was a moment of what might have been Richard’s first headache (those three seconds when the world tilted). The Prelate, Sister Verna, Nicci, Nathan, Sister Ulcia, and Warren may be just what this show needs…”
Aren’t two upcoming episodes also called “light” and “dark”? Could be a hint there . . . Sisters of the Light and Dark . . . and Nicci is of the light and of the dark.
“So Nicci would perceive Lanfear as a sorceress-confessor-dreamwalker-sliph-war wizard with Super Subtractive Beams of Death and anti-magic?”
Now that I think about that, Lanfear does seem pretty uber by SoT standards. Dreamwalker powers would hardly help, but the rest . . . pretty nasty.
“Now that I think about that, Lanfear does seem pretty uber by SoT standards. Dreamwalker powers would hardly help, but the rest . . . pretty nasty.”
I just remembered, Lanfear can also bend light around herself, hide her magic from others(both Mriswith powers), and can cause excruciating pain at a distance, like a Mord-Sith who isn’t limited by the reach of their Agiel.
So, Lanfear is really a sorceress-condar!Confessor-dreamwalker-Mord-Sith-Sliph-Mriswith-war wizard with Super Subtractive Beams of Death and anti-magic.
High-level channelers are pretty overpowered when considered in a SoT setting.
“Now that I think about that, Lanfear does seem pretty uber by SoT standards. Dreamwalker powers would hardly help, but the rest . . . pretty nasty.”
To clarify, Lanfear has only half of Jagang’s powers. She can walk in a person’s dreams, and torture them in it, but she can’t take control of her victims in the way Jagang does. As for the rest, she can teleport faster than a sliph, compulse at range and recharge INTANSTLY, and probably stand toe to toe with Richard, without an angreal…
“To clarify, Lanfear has only half of Jagang’s powers. She can walk in a person’s dreams, and torture them in it, but she can’t take control of her victims in the way Jagang does. As for the rest, she can teleport faster than a sliph, compulse at range and recharge INTANSTLY, and probably stand toe to toe with Richard, without an angreal…”
Lanfear does have a couple of powers that Jagang hasn’t demonstrated, however: Forming barriers against psychic intrusion, something that only the “Bond” has been able to duplicate in SoT, and she also “pulling” a person into her own dreams, where she can warp reality in an undefined extent just by thinking.
Confessors in the Con Dar(and probably male Confessors) also have the ability to strike at range and recharge instantly, which is why I mentioned the Con Dar in my last post.
Yeah, I’d say that Lanfear even without an angreal would be a formidable opponent for even Richard to beat. She’s one of the best that the WoT has to offer, after all.
“Not yet…but one of the upcoming episodes is named “Perdition”, Zeddicus confirmed that Richard had magical powers in Fury, and, in that same episode, there was a moment of what might have been Richard’s first headache (those three seconds when the world tilted). The Prelate, Sister Verna, Nicci, Nathan, Sister Ulcia, and Warren may be just what this show needs…”
“Aren’t two upcoming episodes also called “light” and “dark”? Could be a hint there . . . Sisters of the Light and Dark . . . and Nicci is of the light and of the dark.”
I have good news. Recent information seems to suggest that Nicci and the rest of the Sisters are going to appear 2-3 episodes down the road, and she’ll be portrayed by Jolene Blalock.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Legend_of_the_Seeker_episodes#Season_2_.282009-2010.29
Note sure how authentic wikipedia is in this case, but if they are accurate as they usually are, it is very good news indeed.
“I have good news. Recent information seems to suggest that Nicci and the rest of the Sisters are going to appear 2-3 episodes down the road, and she’ll be portrayed by Jolene Blalock.”
HOLY S**T!! That soon? W00t!
I’m just pumped now. I can’t wait for the next episodes. Legend of the Seeker tends to change the charcter roles a little, but if there’s any character who deserves more time than they got, it is Nicci. Oh man, Nicci in LotS is an awesome idea, it just kicks @ss.
“I have good news. Recent information seems to suggest that Nicci and the rest of the Sisters are going to appear 2-3 episodes down the road, and she’ll be portrayed by Jolene Blalock.”
Wait…This may be a disaster. Yes, they are introducing the Sister of the Light, but they seem to be implying Nicci finds Richard and takes him to the Palace of the Prophets? What about Nathan? and Prelate Anna? Sister Verna? Novice Pasha? Warren? Sister Ulicia? This show has a histroy of cutting down characters and wildly cutting and pasting plots to make up for it. Now I’m scared again…
Sorry for the double post, but I picked up Faith of the Fallen and have a whole new respect for Nicci now. I also think Lanfear’s pain attack would have little affect on Nicci, as she seems to enjoy it…
“Wait…This may be a disaster. Yes, they are introducing the Sister of the Light, but they seem to be implying Nicci finds Richard and takes him to the Palace of the Prophets? What about Nathan? and Prelate Anna? Sister Verna? Novice Pasha? Warren? Sister Ulicia? This show has a histroy of cutting down characters and wildly cutting and pasting plots to make up for it. Now I’m scared again…”
Not necessarily.
The information seems she’ll appear in “Dark”, but that Richard will first meet the Sisters in “Light”, an episode earlier. So, it follows a logical premise that Richard will be brought to the Palace of the Prophets in “Light”(probably by Verna), where he will meet Nicci in “Dark.”
The thing that worries me most is character merging. A thing that adaptions tend to do when they can’t fit all the characters in is they combine the roles and personality of multiple characters into one, and then capitalize on that character. Since Nicci is the foremost Sister of the Dark, we could very well get her killing Sister Margaret, assassinating the Prelate, giving orders to Jedidiah, and trying to steal Richard’s gift in the Hagen woods.
In this case, I hope they will at least make an effort to preserve the nature of the character, as she is one of the better ones in the series. So far, LotS has done quite a varied job pertaining to characters, ranging from outright changing them into completely different characters(Giller), altering their physical appearance(Darken Rahl, Samuel) to even flat out changing the sexual orientation of one. Let’s hope this one turns out as one of the better adaptations.
Oops, missed this.
“Sorry for the double post, but I picked up Faith of the Fallen and have a whole new respect for Nicci now. I also think Lanfear’s pain attack would have little affect on Nicci, as she seems to enjoy it…”
She’s built up quite a tolerance to pain over time, which is augmented, I think, by the apparent ability to partition her mind. Anyone who can take a full-on blast from Jagang would be pretty hard to break.
“In this case, I hope they will at least make an effort to preserve the nature of the character, as she is one of the better ones in the series. So far, LotS has done quite a varied job pertaining to characters, ranging from outright changing them into completely different characters(Giller), altering their physical appearance(Darken Rahl, Samuel) to even flat out changing the sexual orientation of one. Let’s hope this one turns out as one of the better adaptations.”
The managed to get Queen Milena and Princess Violet alright though…Zeddicus is portrayed fine except for the severe downgrade on his powers…Shota was OK too…Demmin Nass was good until they killed him early on…As for Cara, Kahlan, and Richard, and Darken Rahl, its like they read a totally different book…I mean, Darken Rahl is not even portrayed as a wizard…Not to mention the next episode has Denna again, and still evil…”Frusterated sigh in the back of my throat”
Getting back to the fight between these two characters, I think maybe speed will come into play.
Nicci is able to unleash blasts of magic “at the speed of thought” with the only time wasted being the second or two she needs to point at you and for the magic to travel through the air. If Lanfear isn’t able to sling out spells at similar speeds, or if she needs elaborate hand gestures or incantations, she would be at a severe disadvantage that could nullify or wipe out her advantage in power. I don’t really know how quickly magic in WoT is unleashed so if you could provide some info on that I would appreciate it.
“Zeddicus is portrayed fine except for the severe downgrade on his powers…”
That really bothered me as well. We have the First Wizard himself in battle, and he is defeated by a magicless thug who drank an anti-fire potion? Book Zedd would be horrified.
“I don’t really know how quickly magic in WoT is unleashed so if you could provide some info on that I would appreciate it.”
The best examples of how fast WoT magic can be is shown by Moghedien, who would most definetely lose to Lanfear. In Shadow Rising, Elayne has prepared her magic and is ready to unleash it if Moghedien “channels a spark.” Well, she somehow becomes Compulsed and spills very useful information anyway (least favorite moment in the ENTIRE series!) because Moghedien manages to cast the One Power before Elayen even realizes what she is doing.
In another example, Liandrin, the head of a party of Black Ajah (Think Sisters of the Dark without male Han) tries to attack Moghedien while her back is turned. Somehow, Mogedien realizes what she is doing, turns around, embraces the One Power, and defeats her before she can finish her attack. My point is, an average magic user in WoT may take a few seconds, but Moghedien, who is perhaps half or even a quarter as powerful as Lanfear can do it probably as fast as Nicci.
They seem to be equals on speed. In my opinion, its POWER that will decide this match…
In speed of casting and dexterity, I have to give the advantage to Lanfear.
The One Power is cast pretty much at the speed of thought as well, but more powerful users(such as Lanfear) do not require gestures to unleash it, nor do they need incantations or have to send it through the air. A channeler can maintain several “weaves” that are linked to their control of the One Power and channel Saidin/Saidar through these weaves. A channeler could look at a person, and then in an instant make their head explode if they wanted to.
Rand al’Thor is an excellent example of this kind of dexterity. He can maintain over a dozen weaves, doing different things, at the same time, without even breathing hard. Lanfear is of a similar power level to Rand, and was able to defend herself against him throwing everything he had at her while returning her own attacks. She would probably be capable of the same +12 weaves at once that Rand is, or even more, given that women tend to be slightly more dextrous in weaving the One Power.(The One Power has all sorts of little quirks and differences between the sexes like this.)
Nicci seems to focus mainly on doing one thing at a time with magic. The most I’ve ever seen from a SoT spellcaster is combining two types of spells into one attack and launching the double spell, like what Nicci does with Additive and Subtractive lightning. Since Lanfear can use her weaving to slice through flows of magic directed at her with pinpoint accuracy, Nicci is going to have a hard time getting a hit in, especially since she has no apparent means to cut through Lanfear’s weaves.
“Since Lanfear can use her weaving to slice through flows of magic directed at her with pinpoint accuracy, Nicci is going to have a hard time getting a hit in, especially since she has no apparent means to cut through Lanfear’s weaves.”
All right, Lanfear sounds like a pretty fast caster, but you’re forgetting that Nicci has Subtractive Magic, and she has sliced through spells and shields created by the strongest wizards before effortlessly. She could just subtract all of Lanfear’s weaves before she can throw anything at Nicci. If anything, it’s Lanfear who’s going to have a hard time getting a hit in, since her weaves will be constantly erased from existence before she can use them.
“All right, Lanfear sounds like a pretty fast caster, but you’re forgetting that Nicci has Subtractive Magic, and she has sliced through spells and shields created by the strongest wizards before effortlessly. She could just subtract all of Lanfear’s weaves before she can throw anything at Nicci. If anything, it’s Lanfear who’s going to have a hard time getting a hit in, since her weaves will be constantly erased from existence before she can use them.”
She might have a little difficulty with that, since Lanfear’s weaves are immune to everyone except those who can sense and channel Saidar.
“She might have a little difficulty with that, since Lanfear’s weaves are immune to everyone except those who can sense and channel Saidar.”
Sh*t. I ment to say her weaves are INVISIBLE to everyone but those who can sense and channel Saidar, not immune. Please disregard that previous statement of mine.
Nicci will have difficulty cutting Lanfear’s weaves because she wouldn’t be able to see them, though I suppose Subtractive Magic probably could cut them if she could somehow find and hit them.
“All right, Lanfear sounds like a pretty fast caster, but you’re forgetting that Nicci has Subtractive Magic, and she has sliced through spells and shields created by the strongest wizards before effortlessly. She could just subtract all of Lanfear’s weaves before she can throw anything at Nicci. If anything, it’s Lanfear who’s going to have a hard time getting a hit in, since her weaves will be constantly erased from existence before she can use them.”
Even if it does work, Subtractive Magic won’t do a thing against balefire, as the Subtractive magic will be erased from existence several seconds BEFORE the balefire touches it…
“Even if it does work, Subtractive Magic won’t do a thing against balefire, as the Subtractive magic will be erased from existence several seconds BEFORE the balefire touches it…”
Erase Subtractive Magic, the very energy of nothingness and death, from existence? Sounds like a metaphysical problem in the making.
“Nicci will have difficulty cutting Lanfear’s weaves because she wouldn’t be able to see them, though I suppose Subtractive Magic probably could cut them if she could somehow find and hit them.”
Won’t be a problem, because Nicci has a sort of “sorceress’s sixth sense” that allows her to see with her gift instead of relying on her physical senses. This ability was only previously seen as Adie’s signature ability, but it was revealed in one of the later books that Nicci had this ability as well, not surprising, since Nicci is to Adie as a wolf is to a chiwawa. She can use this ability to sense and perceive frequencies of magic and energy that are invisible to normal humans. So she would see Lanfear’s weaves plain as day.
Anyway, I’m not worried about Subtractive Magic being used against Balefire; Nicci won’t need to do that. What I’m thinking is with her sorceress vision she’ll see all the weaves Lanfear is using before she starts sending saidar through them and then erase them from existence. Bye-bye, weaves of the One Power. What’s Lanfear going to do when all of her weaves are cut, leaving her without any means to sling out spells, before she can channel a thing? Even if she could still direct it through her hands or something, it would still even out the dexterity issue at the very least.
“Anyway, I’m not worried about Subtractive Magic being used against Balefire”
I would most definetely be. Balefire is more unblockable than Avada Kedrava. It erases whatever it touches before it touches it, so a shield of subtractive magic would be erased before it could be used to effect. Balefire is the ultimate trump card, if used against Nicci, her only real hope is to lunge out of the way, difficult, because Balefire moves at the speed of light…
“What’s Lanfear going to do when all of her weaves are cut, leaving her without any means to sling out spells, before she can channel a thing?”
Even if Nicci somehow manages to use subtractive magic against 12 weaves being cast at the same time before any hit her, she still has no real weapons against being shielded or balefired…
“What I’m thinking is with her sorceress vision she’ll see all the weaves Lanfear is using before she starts sending saidar through them and then erase them from existence. Bye-bye, weaves of the One Power. What’s Lanfear going to do when all of her weaves are cut, leaving her without any means to sling out spells, before she can channel a thing? Even if she could still direct it through her hands or something, it would still even out the dexterity issue at the very least.”
You misunderstand Lanfear’s weaves. She doesn’t need them to use the One Power. If fact, her weaves get sliced away in combat repeatedly and she suffers nothing more than a momentary set back. If she loses any of her weaves, she can form another to use Saidar with a flick of her thoughts and use it. And even if all her weaves are simultaneously cut AND she somehow doesn’t just deploy more, she could still just point at Nicci and unleash balefire.
“I would most definetely be. Balefire is more unblockable than Avada Kedrava. It erases whatever it touches before it touches it, so a shield of subtractive magic would be erased before it could be used to effect. Balefire is the ultimate trump card, if used against Nicci, her only real hope is to lunge out of the way, difficult, because Balefire moves at the speed of light…”
I meant that I wasn’t worried because I didn’t think it would come to that. From what I’ve heard about balefire, I have to admit it would probably be the match or superior of pure Subtractive Magic.
“Even if Nicci somehow manages to use subtractive magic against 12 weaves being cast at the same time before any hit her, she still has no real weapons against being shielded or balefired…”
She could just flood the air with Subtractive energy or lightning. Lanfear would be too busy protecting her body to save her weaves.
Didn’t AHEM talk about the potential for Nicci resisting shielding or whatever a couple of posts back?
“Didn’t AHEM talk about the potential for Nicci resisting shielding or whatever a couple of posts back?”
I did not find it, but I believe he talked about resisting stilling. Stilling is complete and total and permeneant cut off from magic, while shielding is temporary. Stilling would not do well with Nicci because she has multiple Hans, and Lanfear would have to cut one off one at a time. Shielding, however, cuts off all magic, and something Nicci really cannot duplicate or defend against. Its also incredibldy easy to do in the WoT Universe, many times the victims do not realize what has happened until it is too late…
“I did not find it, but I believe he talked about resisting stilling. Stilling is complete and total and permeneant cut off from magic, while shielding is temporary. Stilling would not do well with Nicci because she has multiple Hans, and Lanfear would have to cut one off one at a time. Shielding, however, cuts off all magic, and something Nicci really cannot duplicate or defend against. Its also incredibldy easy to do in the WoT Universe, many times the victims do not realize what has happened until it is too late…”
I believe I discussed the possibility of this in post #42. I’ll let my previous words speak for themselves.
“Shielding is stated to be more difficult when the target in question is tapping/touching/using their magic at the exact moment. Nicci might gain some slight protection, if only due to that the first lesson in controlling her magic she learned is to touch her “Han”, and the air often crackles around her as a result of subtle use of her magic. However, given that Lanfear’s magic and feats are on quite a bigger scale than Nicci’s, it would probably be extremely difficult to resist being shielded for more than a brief period of time.”
I should point out, however, that shielding someone is only “incredibly easy” when they aren’t already touching the True Source, which is where most of the surprise factor comes from, reaching for Saidar/Saidin and finding a barrier between you and it. It is not uncommon, however, for a target who is already touching their magic to be able to fight against and sometimes resist it.
100 comments . . . I would never have expected this suggestion of mine, involving two relatively obscure characters, to get this much attention.
“It is not uncommon, however, for a target who is already touching their magic to be able to fight against and sometimes resist it.”
That’s only possible, however, if the person being shielded is more powerful than the person sheilding, like how Rand alThor managed to beat down Verrin and Alanna’s shield shortly after being bonded. I am pretty sure Lanfear is more powerful than Nicci, she is tied for second in a world where magic is 4x more common than SoT while Nicci is definetely behind several in SoT, and Lanfear has the True Source from the Dark One, and who knows what she can do with that…